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Does the Soul or Spirit Carry Consciousness?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Andre, Sep 28, 2007.

  1. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    Andre -- I appreciate your effort to explain this to me. But let's see what Wright was talking about (though he obviously doesn't know it). 1) We have a PHYSICAL inheritance in heaven that we cannot "come into" until we are raptured bodily to heaven. This in no way contradicts the biblical teaching that "to be absent from the flesh is to be present [spiritually] with the Lord."

    2) The souls under the altar are NOT "awakening." They are fresh martyrs of the tribulation. These souls had not believed on Christ that they might avoid the tribulation (2Thes 2:10). In fact, when you see their "fellowservants" come up to heaven in Rev 7:9-12, you will see that they praise and worship God even having a "song of praise" (7:10) to "sing" before the throne. Far from being allegory, these are the eye witness testimony of John of actual events!

    BTW -- it is called "The Revelation," not because it hides the truth from believers but because it REVEALS the truth but only to those who "to whom it is given" (Mt 13:11-14, 1Cor 2:7).

    skypair
     
  2. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    That wouldn't be hard for God, would it. The dead are pictured as being raised from their graves, and if it's not the body, and the "soul" or "spirit" is not actually in the grave, then what else would there be?

    I know that some Christians used to teach "Christians don't cremate" with the reasoning that it would go against belief in the resurrection (I remember Jimmy Swaggart shouting that once). So for those people without a grave, basically; I imagine God would put their remains back together, and then transform it to immortal. At least that's the impression I always got from teaching on the resurrection. You also had the question of "bringing life back to these bones" in the OT. It was supposed to be like Christ's resurrection, which did use the same body.
     
  3. angelfire

    angelfire New Member

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    conciousness of spirit and soul in humans

    Hi Andre
    I agree with you . Solomon says the SPIRIT goes back to God at death. Moses says God breathed the breath of life into man and he BECAME a living soul--before that he was just a lump of dirt. .God made man in HIS image---TRIUNE , body soul and spirit. if the soul and spirit are the SAME thing we are NOT made in Gods image and God is a liar. Spirit is ,therefore "lifeforce" which God reclaims ,SOUL is "ego , conciousness which goes to the grave with the body and is NOT ressurected until the ;LAST TRUMP This conciousness is then joined with spirit and the NEW body. I find it ludicrous that the "soul" is concious in heaven . It would seem odd indeed for Christ to tell these souls to get back in their bodies so he would have something to do at the last trump? ---or maybe we get the OLD body transformed? but this still doesnt explain the tri-une likeness God created. The story of Lazarus is just that , a story and Dr David Jeramiah pulls a lot of unrelated verses together to try to explain Gehenna ,Hades and Tartarus together when they are inventions of Westcott and Hortes "translation"
    in Christ
    angelfire
     
  4. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Here is my original quote that you disagreed with:

    "Luke 23:46 And Jesus, having cried with a loud voice, said, Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit. And having said this, he expired. (Darby)
    --He actively committed his spirit, (his own human spirit) to the Father, and then he died--Note the definition of death--the separation of the spirit from the body. The body was dead without soul or spirit, was shortly taken down from the cross and consequently buried in the tomb. His spirit, not the Holy Spirit, he had committed to the Father, and his spirit activel went to the Father."

    Here is where my definition comes from:

    James 2:26 For as the body without a spirit is dead,
    --When the spirit separates itself from the body, the body is dead. That is what happened with Christ. He committed his spirit to the Father, and His body died. This is entirely Biblical. At no time did "Christ" die, except in body only. His spirit never lost consciousness. If you have proof that he did then provide it. If he did, then the world would have collapsed. You have done nothing to refute this argument, and it totally destroys your own argument of soul sleep, since Christ's spirit was his human spirit that he committed to his Father.
     
  5. Andre

    Andre Well-Known Member

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    Hello skypair:

    I believe that our inheritance is not heaven but a remade and transformed cosmos. To quote NT Wright - heaven is important but it is not the "end of the world". In support of this position I cite Romans 8:18-26

    I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
    We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

    I think this text clearly teaches that the created world will be liberated from its decay. Why would God do this if that transformed world is not our eventual home and will eventually be abandoned? What purpose do you think such a transformed physical world will serve if not as our final home.

    I also restate NT Wright's argument re texts like this from 1 Peter 1:

    "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade—kept in heaven for you."

    If I invite a friend over and tell him that there is an "inheritance" of cold beer waiting for him in the fridge, he does not have to enter the fridge to enjoy the beer.

    There can be no doubt - this text is entirely consistent with a view that our ultimate inheritance, while "stored" in heaven, will be "brought down" to the remade earth.

    And Revelation 21 backs this up - Heaven comes down to earth, we do not "go up" to Heaven:

    I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them.

    There are also passages in Isaiah that talk strongly about a remade creation. That is our end state, not heaven. When God created the cosmos, He declared it to be "very good". He has been redeeming his created order from Adam over the long course of history. He is not going to abandon that which he is clearly remaking (Romans 8). A remade creation will be our ultimate home, not heaven.
     
  6. Andre

    Andre Well-Known Member

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    Again you are arguing in a circular manner - appealing to a definition that is really a "reading in" of a belief that is actually brought to the text.

    Where have you established that Christ never lost consciousness? You claim this, but you do not support it, except of course, by an appeal to a "definition" which ultimately begs the question by assuming that because a body without a spirit is dead, this means that the spirit has to be the bearer of consciousness. Or you argue that if Jesus were to be rendered unconscious, reality would collapse (I respond to this later).

    There are many counterexamples that show that one cannot merely claim the logical necessity of a consciousness bearing spirit. A glowing light bulb without electricity sheds no light - does this mean that electricity, without flowing through a light bulb sheds light? Or course not.

    This idea that either the body or the spirit has to be the bearer of consciousness is so deeply ingrained in Western thinking, people seem unable to stand back and question it. Welcome to Platonism. But when one does, one sees a myriad of situations where some thing C exhibits a property P that neither of its constituent elements, say A and B, exhibits. Until people are willing to take off their Plato goggles, they will be mystified by suggestions that consciousness might be a property that only arises when a spirit is embodied.

    If you can show that Jesus never lost consciousness other than through a murky appeal to the unity of the Trinity - that Jesus and God are one and if Jesus is unconscious then God is also unconscious - and if you can show that you and I have same "kind" of spirit, then and only then will you have made a case.

    Jesus slept during his 33 years. Did the Universe come to a grinding halt because Jesus was unconscious for 8 hours every night?

    And there are plenty of examples where we do see a distinctiveness between the Father and the Son:

    Matthew 24:36
    No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father

    So one cannot legitmately argue that Jesus could never lose consciousness because that would necessitate the entire Godhead losing consciousness.

    I have what I believe to be a strong argument as to why Jesus was in fact, unconscious, between committing his spirit to the Father and being raised, but I will give it in another post.
     
  7. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Andre,
    You ignore Scripture completely and only reason from your own imagination. Go back to the Scripture which I have given you.
    I yield; I commit; I surrender..my spirit.
    These are all verbs that show action, and cannot be done in an unconscious state. Jesus did not go into a state of unconsciousness when he yielded or committed his spirit unto the Father as it says in Luke. If you can demonstrate that bring for the evidence. I have brought you the evidence that he did not. The verbs prove it. They are active. They show something that cannot be done in an unconscious or sleeping state. If I give something to you how can I do it when I am sleeping? You do not make sense.
     
  8. Andre

    Andre Well-Known Member

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    It simply does not logically follow that if I consciously, actively commit my spirit to God before physical death, that spirit has to be the bearer of my consciousness after death. My whole point is that I believe the proper scriptural perspective on the nature of the human person is that the spirit and the body only exhibit the property of consciousness when brought together and integrated.

    You appear to simply assume that is has to be the case that the spirit carries the property of consciousness. Where have you shown this to be the case? - please give a post number. And circular arguments which assume, however subtly, the very thing they are trying to prove, will be recognized as such.

    I will leave it to the readers to judge who does and does not make sense.
     
  9. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Either Jesus did what he said he did or he lied. You apparently prefer the latter.
    He said: "Into thy hands I commit my spirit."
    Did he do that or not? Did he lie?
    If he at any point he lost his conscious spirit, he not only lied about it, but the Godhead would have lost consciousness also, for at that time he was committing his human spirit into the Divine hands of the Father. Would the Father be holding a sleeping spirit? Spirits don't sleep. The very concept that they do is absolutely ridiculous, especially regarding the spirit of Jesus.
    On another front we believe that his spirit was very active. He went and proclaimed his victory to other spirits--in Hell. Then he went and led other spirits (OT saints) that were in paradise up to heaven. This all happened before he went back on the third day and united again with his body in the Resurrection. His spirit wasn't sleeping, now was it? He was very active.
     
  10. Andre

    Andre Well-Known Member

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    The readers will know that I never denied that Jesus committed his spirit into his Father's keeping. DHK - please name the post where I denied this. You will, of coure, not be able to do.
    And we are to accept your simple claim that spirits always bear the property of consciousness.

    It has been clearly shown that there is no logical necessity of this.

    No one has provided a smidgen of scriptural of evidence for this that does not assume the very thing it is trying to prove.
    As always, lets have the Scriptural support for this please. And, even if it can be shown that Jesus was conscious after death, the OP is really about what happens to us. Please feel free to argue that "what is true of Jesus' spirit is true of ours, therefore we too must be conscious after death".
     
  11. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    This fits the biblical data perfectly.
     
  12. Andre

    Andre Well-Known Member

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    It most certainly does not. I will show how the flaws in DHK's specific argument that "spirits don't sleep" in light of his position that the spirit is the bearer of human consciousness (which I am certain is his position):

    1. DHK claims that as He died on the Cross, Jesus "was committing his human spirit into the Divine hands of the Father".

    2. DHK claims: "Would the Father be holding a sleeping spirit? Spirits don't sleep."

    3. DHK claims that the human spirit is the bearer of the consciousness of the human person

    4. I claim the undeniable fact that human beings sleep - and when they sleep, they lose consciousness.

    5. Therefore for DHK's argument to hold, Jesus either never slept or when he did, he did not lose consciousness.

    6. We know Jesus slept - the account at sea proves this.

    7. If Jesus' spirit was consciously awake while he "slept" - strange as that might seem, it most certainly proves that Jesus' spirit is entirely unlike ours, which is unconscious as we sleep.

    8. This totally undermines any claim that "what is true about Jesus' spirit is also true about ours".

    9. One cannot therefore claim that because Jesus's spirit was conscious after death, ours must be as well.

    We can of course, talk about texts like 1 Peter 3:18. But the whole purpose of the thread is to talk about what happens to us. I suggest that my argument above undercuts any argument advanced so far to the effect that what is true of Jesus's spirit must be true of ours.
     
    #92 Andre, Oct 3, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 3, 2007
  13. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Andre,
    Any reader with a grade five education can read beyond your word games. As I pointed out before words have meanings, and some more than one.
    There is a difference between sleep, as the necessity of the human body to function properly on this earth;
    and "sleep" as a synonym for physical death in the body--that is how it is used in 1Cor. 11:30:

    For many among you are weak, and sickly, and many sleep (physically dead).

    Your word games; your semantics aren't working. The average reader is a bit more intelligent than that. Try making an intelligent answer.
     
  14. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    Dear Friends,

    Let's think about one thing awhile.

    What do you imagine the souls are doing if not sleeping?

    1. Souls would not do
    - Soccer game
    - playing tennis
    - building houses
    - driving any cars or motors
    - eating and drinking

    2. Souls may do

    - praise God
    - pray to God
    - give thanks to God
    - interceding to God for the believers on the earth
    - accepting the prayers from the saints on the earth, then say " No, I am a fellow servant, don't pray to me" Then the saints on the earth say " No, I am not praying to you, but asking you to pray for me, to intercede for me"
    - passing the prayer request to God as an intercession.

    - fly all over the world to see and enjoy the sightseeing.
    - studying any archaeology
    - holding a conference among the souls of the believers
    - holding a prayer meeting
    - singing to praise God.
    - Sleeping 8 hours per day?
    - Learning Bible more from God
    - Studying the theology


    Are these all that you want to think about?

    Denial of Soul Sleep is in danger of Prayer to Dead and of the Ancestor WSorship.

    I am not believing in Soul Sleep in order to reject Prayer to the Dead or Ancestor Worship, but believing that the Souls are doing anything before the start of the actual Heaven is ridiculous idea, and it cannot be found anywhere in the Bible as the Psalm says the dead persons cannot pray or praise or give thanks to God. If their souls ( at least the souls, though the bodies decay) can do anything, the Bible would have said, their souls are praising after death, though their bodies are decaying. Where is such statement?

    Why does Re 6:9-14 says the souls of martyrs are to rest instead of saying "continue to praise"?

    Denial of Soul Sleep is directly linked with paganism, and the heretics.
     
  15. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    How do you know that? Are you a gnostic? If it be conceded that a soul is the same as a spirit, and it is the spirit that we are speaking of (for the sake of confusion), then think of this: What do angels do? Angels are very active. Angels are spirits, and yet an angel took up wrestling and wrestled with Jacob; of course he was the "angel of the Lord," but an angel nevertheless.
    Now here you have exercised your right to butcher the Scriptures by allegorizing Scripture and taking many verses out of context in order to come to some ridiculous conclusions.
    --However you do have a spirit in heaven recognizing that it is wrong to receive worship from another created being. At least that is a step in the right direction.
    Revelation 6:9-10 And when it opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of them that had been slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held; and they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O sovereign Ruler, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell upon the earth?
    They obviously were not sleeping; were not unconscious, were they. They were very much alive, crying out to God in a loud voice. So here you are taking Scripture out of its context again.
    No, acceptance of soul sleep is a denial of the straightforward teaching of the Bible.
     
  16. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    1. OK, I thought you yourself would deny them naturally because they don't have the bodies. Now you claim they have already bodies and don't need to fetch the bodies by resurrection.
    Now you can include the Soccer matches, wrestling, boxing and olympic games there. I thought you rejected them but now you may include them in your republic of the dead. You may watch and enjoy the deadmen's party and music festivals, building houses and construction works there, maybe some industries and ships too.

    2. You revealed the ignorance about the difference between El/Elohim ( Angels) and the Malack ( Pre-enfleshment Jesus Christ). The person who wrestled with Jacob was not angel but the Malack, God the Son before He came to this world in human form. Read Gen 31:11-13 . God can do many things, and you cannot compare HIm with the dead souls.

    You are butchering the Bible and that's how you can convert the word " sleep" into "Active and Praising"
    The Martyrs are still crying? Maybe it is your misunderstanding! They are resting ! They cried to God before they enter the Rest.
    You have to add one more acitivity which I forgot to list "crying ! and speaking loudly !"

    Denial of Soul Sleep coincides exactly with Pagan Heretics ! Pagan Prayer to the Dead.
     
  17. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    1. And where does it say in Scripture that Jesus became unconscious at His death?

    2. DHK's comments on Jesus' spirit after death and before His resurrection fits well the biblical data per 1 Pet.3:18, 19.

    3. I still cannot find in Scripture that death means soul sleep or the spirit becomes unconscious.

    4. It seems that you guys are taking what happens to a person while sleeping and then applies it to death. Again, the bible says Death is the spirit's separation from the body (Jas 2:26).
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Nope.He and Stephen did the same thing in their death statements.

    Placed faith in the Eccl 12 fact that "the spirit of man goes back to God who gave it" at death.

    No text.

    No text.

    NO text says "Jesus lead the spirits in paradise up to heaven"

    No text.

    In John 20 "I have not yet ascended to My Father" - we have Christ refusing worship. But later after apparently making that trip - He accepts worship among the disciples.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Not sure what God does in a God-man state at death --

    But I DO know that I am not God -- and that is a big step for some apparently.:laugh:

    "REGARDING those who are ASLEEP" !thess 4.

    "LAZARUS SLEEPS" John 11

    "WE shall not ALL SLEEP" 1Cor 15 - "BUT WE shall all be changed"

    And yes - my body will sleep tonight as it does every night. But some of you think that when my body sleeps -- I am dead -- Have no fear that is not true. It is only when my spirit goes to that dormant state of sleep that I will be dead for then my body will be decaying -- dust to dust and NOT sleep-to-dust.


    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #99 BobRyan, Oct 3, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 3, 2007
  20. Andre

    Andre Well-Known Member

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    I at least know what begging the question is and that you are an expert at it.

    It is simply not correct to presume that the spirit is the bearer of consciousness and then use that presumption to "prove" the very thing you are assuming.

    How do you know that sleep is used to refer to a state where, strangely, full consciousness is actually preserved?

    It will probably not escape the reader's attention that the discriminating characteristic of sleep is absence of consciousness. If your theory about the meaning of sleep is correct then the writers of Scripture need lessons in literary technique.

    Using the term "sleep" to refer to a state where full flower of consciousness is present is like using the word "silence" to denote what goes on at a rock concert.

    And I choose to not defend your implications about my intelligence. I will let the content of my arguments be me advocate or accuser as the case may be.
     
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