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Featured Doesn't 1 John 5:1 grammatically say that regeneration logically precedes faith?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Greektim, Mar 5, 2014.

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  1. Greektim

    Greektim Well-Known Member

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    I guess that is is partly my point. The grammar is quite clear. There is nothing "OBSCURE" in 1 Jn 5:1. It is straight forward in the text. So why can't I use this to interpret those other verses. After all, you have to start w/ at least 1 verse to interpret the rest. I choose this on.

    Couple things on this one (since I have written a 55 page paper on the Greek of this verse):

    First, don't use the KJV here. It is very misleading.

    Second, the sequence you perceive is a logical sequence. The participles are causal not temporal. This is similar to what I am arguing for 1 Jn 5:1.

    Third, this verse says nothing about regeneration. So it isn't a good illustration of what you want to say in order to disprove me. Rom. 8:9 nor Eph. 1:13 says nothing about regeneration.

    As was pointed out in the OP, essentially and grammatically that is what it says! And it is worse, since word order doesn't matter, it could better be translated, "Each one who has been born by God believes that the Messiah is Jesus." This is a very legit translation. Again, word order doesn't matter in Greek. Just b/c something was said first is not of prime importance (except for emphasis, maybe). The grammar of the perfect passive "having been born" means that it logically precedes the present participle "believes". In other words, the birth causes the faith. Or to put the emphasis on the belief that proves one's status as a Christian (part of the point of 1 Jn), faith is mentioned first for emphasis as the result of being born by God.



    No matter what though, I hope you are at least willing to admit that (1) you (the non calvie) has a prob w/ this verse since you are not willing to exegete it but deferring to a dozen other verses & (2) you have seen a grammatical argument that backs up the calvie view. So we are not believing this in a vacuum. We do believe we have Scripture that supports our view.
     
    #41 Greektim, Mar 6, 2014
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  2. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Again, I have no way to know if what you say is correct or not. I have read articles supporting both views from Greek scholars. Here is someone who argues against you from the Greek

    Source- http://danmusicktheology.com/faith-precedes-regeneration/

    So, this fellow who seems to know both Greek and Greek grammar disagrees with you and gives good examples to support his view.

    But I know neither Greek, nor am I a scholar on grammar, so I will go with the nearly dozen or so verses that all show faith preceding regeneration.

    You are talking to a King James ONLY. :laugh:

    No way you are going to convince me the KJB is in error here. But that is another debate.

    I don't argue order from this verse at all. I argue order from many other verses that all show faith precedes regeneration.


    Titus 3:5 shows that regeneration is a washing of sin, which only occurs after faith. We are also renewed by the Holy Ghost at the same moment, and MANY scriptures show we receive the Holy Spirit AFTER believing.

    Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
    6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
    7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

    We are justified by faith. We receive the Spirit by faith. You cannot be renewed by the Spirit until you receive the Spirit.

    Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

    Paul's question demands the answer that we received the Spirit by faith.

    Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

    Paul's question absolutely implies he believed a person receives the Spirit after first believing.

    So how can you be washed of your sins and be renewed by the Spirit unless you first believed??

    As I have told you, there are MANY scriptures that support faith preceding regeneration. I can show you MANY more. You choose to ignore these many scriptures because you want to believe the Reformed/Calvinist view, even though the vast majority of scripture argues against it.

    And as I have shown, there are Greek scholars that disagree with you. Either way, I have no way to know.

    But this I do know, there are a dozen or more scriptures that ALL support faith preceding regeneration.

    I believe my evidence is MUCH BETTER than yours.
     
    #42 Winman, Mar 6, 2014
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  3. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    Oh I've read the OP.

    Like Winman, I'm no expert in the Greek language.
    I know just enough Greek to know not to make grammatical arguments.

    Looking through my commentaries about this verse shows me that grammarians argue amongst themselves regarding the meaning and interpretation of this verse.

    For example:

    Just saying, your argument is interesting and to be considered but it's not something I'd hang my hat on.

    Rob
     
    #43 Deacon, Mar 7, 2014
  4. Greektim

    Greektim Well-Known Member

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    I appreciate the effort.

    As for not hanging my hat on it... is that based on Anderson's quote? B/c he saw what pretty much all commentators saw and then made an audacious claim of sophomoric error of Greek grammar. I wish I could find where Anderson earned his PhD. However, I trust the other names mentioned above. I've seen their prowess in Greek. They are no sophmores by any stretch. I don't know Anderson. So I ask, again, is that why I should not hang my hat here, based on this guys statement?

    Rebuttal: should you put all your eggs in this basket just b/c Anderson questions the verse (yet said nothing of the grammar of the verse to back it up, unless you didn't type it)???

    Edit: finally found it... ThM & PhD from Dallas. I half expected this. Most from the "free grace" movement come from Dallas. So that just means he went to school under one of the guys (Wallace assuming the same Wallace) he criticized as making a sophomoric grammar error. I would sure love to hear more about that.
     
    #44 Greektim, Mar 7, 2014
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  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    well, think Dr wallace, while not perfect in all of his understands regarding the greek of the bible, would be much more than a "Sophomoric" scholar!

    And think that there has not yet be really anything that would stand to derail your exegesis of the passage either!
     
    #45 Yeshua1, Mar 7, 2014
  6. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Wow, that settles it, you have the endorsement of Yeshua1. We all know what an expert he is at grammar.

    [​IMG]
     
    #46 Winman, Mar 7, 2014
  7. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    The thread is closed.
     
    #47 Squire Robertsson, Mar 8, 2014
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