Domino Effect not just in the Power Grid

Discussion in 'Music Ministry' started by Dr. Bob, Aug 15, 2003.

  1. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    (Follow the logic here. Is there a corelation between the RISE of CCM and the exodus from sound doctrine?)

    IF I am inundated (car, work, home) with Country Western music, it will NOT "make me" dip Skoal, buy a pickup, divorce my wife and put on cowboy boots.

    But it will affect my mind, my spirit, my thinking, my whole way of life. IF I have given thought to any (of the above), it will seem to be the "norm" or normal thing to do.

    Now, same with CCM. I listen to CCM in car, home, radio, worship team at church. Think that is NOT going to affect me? Gotta be kidding!

    I'll be raising my hands, swaying to the beat like a Bruce Springsteen concert. And since the bulk of CCM is rabidly charismatic (don't think that can be denied) getting all caught up in shallow lyrics, bad theology, touchy-feely-huggie-kissy, well you get the pix.

    And what is next in effect? MY church doesn't have that kind of "love" and "spirit", so away from the good Reformed Baptist church and A Mighty Fortress I drift.

    Cause/Effect. NOT saying it MUST happen, just that I've seen it all too often!

    Open for discussion [​IMG]
     
  2. Mike McK

    Mike McK
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2001
    Messages:
    6,630
    Likes Received:
    0
     
  3. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    Every part of the charismatic movement oozes with emotional and sensual "feelings". And so does the music associated with the movement.

    It bothers me that Baptists are so easily caught up in this sensuality. But like my heroine, Debbie Boone taught, "It can't be wrong if it feels so right!" :eek:
     
  4. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    Does "You Light Up My Life" work as a good CCM song?

    YOU is generic as in almost all CCM. Can refer to Jesus or Joe or Mary or Madonna.

    Man, I can't remember the lyrics of that chorus for the life of me. Help me, Rhonda! (mixing metaphors) :D
     
  5. Mike McK

    Mike McK
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2001
    Messages:
    6,630
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree that a lot of the Charismatic movement is that way but that's hardly limited to charismatics. There are plenty of baptists who operate out of emotion or, worse, out of rote ceremony.

    "You light up my life
    Skyrockets in flight
    A--A--Afternoon delight".


    I agree but since it's music by Christians, for Christians, about God, I think it can reasonably be assumed Who the "You" here is.
     
  6. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    You and I know that it is about God, but what about the "seeker" or unsaved that hasn't been to church since they walked out at age 12?

    Can almost hear Whitney Houston singing "And I - I - I will always love You - ou ou " and wonder if THAT qualifies as CCM? :eek:
     
  7. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2002
    Messages:
    3,417
    Likes Received:
    0
    But don't anti-praise and worship people deny against using worship music as a form of outreach? If this is true, then isn't your argument null and void?
     
  8. Mike McK

    Mike McK
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2001
    Messages:
    6,630
    Likes Received:
    0
    I was thinking along the same lines as Scott.

    One of the favorite arguments of the anti-contemporary music luddites is that music isn't supposed to be used for evangelism, anyway.

    Like I said, it's made by a specific group of people for a specific group of people so I have to assume that that group will get it.
     
  9. DanielFive

    DanielFive
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2003
    Messages:
    683
    Likes Received:
    0
    The argument is that SACRED music should not be used as entertainment nor is it used for evangelism. Consider this:


    The PURPOSE of Christian music.

    God has placed a lot of emphasis on music. The Bible has over 500 references to music. The longest book in the Bible is Psalms. Psalms are "songs unto the Lord". The purpose of music is to praise and worship the Lord. Christian music is sung "unto the Lord" not "unto the world". Just a few verses, from hundreds, that teach this:

    "Make a joyful noise unto the LORD, all the earth: make a loud noise, and rejoice, and sing PRAISE.
    Sing unto the LORD with the harp; with the harp, and the voice of a psalm.
    With trumpets and sound of cornet make a joyful noise before the LORD, the King." Psalm 98:4-6

    "It is a good thing to give thanks unto the LORD, and to sing PRAISES unto thy name, O most High:" Psalm 92:1

    Dr. Frank Garlock, author of several books on Christian music, and an instructor in Christian music for over 40 years, writes:

    "Contrary to popular opinion, sacred music is not for entertainment. Christian music is first and foremost a vehicle for praise unto the Lord." (Garlock, Frank & Woetzel, Kurt, Music in the Balance, Majesty Music, 1992 p.54)

    Christian music was NEVER meant for the lost world. The Bible is very clear - Christian music is "sung unto the Lord" - not the world!

    The purpose of Christian music was NEVER meant to evangelize the lost!

    The book "What About Christian Rock" by Dan Peters, Steve Peters and Cher Merrill is a book praising Christian Rock. Chapter Eight (pp. 100-145) of the book, titled "Goals" is very interesting. In "Goals", through personal interview, correspondence, or quoted statements, the authors state the "quoted" goals of approximately 130 individual CCM performers. Dr. Garlock and Kurt Woetzel, in their book, Music in the Balance, give summary of these goals. Here is the chart as it appears in Music in the Balance (p. 111):

    GOALS MENTIONED FREQUENCY
    Evangelism 66
    Hope and Encouragement 28
    Communicate God 16
    Discipleship and Commitment 15
    Positive Influence 11
    Speak to Contemporary Issues 11
    Praise 3
    Nebulous 28
    Used Scripture 1

    Notice in the chart: 66 stated "Evangelism" as their goal, and only 3 out of 130 artists said "praise" is one of their goals! And what's even more interesting – out of 130 CCMers ONLY ONE "Used Scripture" in stating the goal of their music! WOW! And this is from a book (What About Rock) trying to justify Christian Rock!

    The GOAL of using Christian music as Evangelism is not the GOAL of Christian music. Tim Fisher, author, musician, music professor and founder of Sacred Music Services, states in his book, "The Battle for Christian Music":

    "Music is never used in Scripture as a means of reaching the lost." (Tim Fisher, The Battle for Christian Music, p.155)

    Nowhere in the Bible do you find music used as a goal of "Evangelism". Tim Fisher also gives another problem with using music for evangelism:

    "One of the major problems with the CCM crowd is that they believe the purpose of music is outreach. When outreach is your stated purpose, you will go to any lengths to justify almost anything in attempting to reach the lost. Indeed, this is exactly what we are seeing in the CCM movement today." (Tim Fisher, The Battle for Christian Music, p.156)

    The "lost" world is not interested in Christian songs "praising the Lord." The only way to get the lost world to "like" Christian songs is to "spiritually-dumb-down" the songs. In order for CCM to appeal to the world they have to remove, hide or disguise the Christian influence. Can the lost world really appreciate songs praising God for salvation, thankfulness, mercy, love, sanctification, et. al.? The Bible is clear — to the lost world spiritual things are foolishness!

    But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Corinthians. 2:14)
    Psalm 137 is an interesting scenario. The children of Israel are taken captive by Babylon. The children of Israel were well known for their instruments and songs. Babylon wanted them to play a song — but the children of Israel refuse to play the Lord's song for the world!

    1 By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.
    2 We hanged our harps upon the willows in the midst thereof.
    3 For there they that carried us away captive required of us a song; and they that wasted us required of us mirth, saying, Sing us one of the songs of Zion.
    4 How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
    (Psalms 137:1-4)
    The music from the Lord is sacred! It should not be taken lightly! It should not be used as entertainment for the world!

    Just as the lost world is not interested in a "Bible-believing" church that preaches the word of God, the world is not interested in music that praises the Lord. The lost world is NOT going to praise the Lord Jesus Christ. According to the Lord Jesus Himself – the world HATES Him!

    "The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil." (John 7:7)

    "If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you." (John 15:18)

    The only way Contemporary Christian Music can "entice" the world is "remove", "disguise" or "redefine" the Lord Jesus Christ.

    And that is exactly what they do! They subtly remove the Lord Jesus and replaced our Lord Jesus Christ with the pronouns; "he", "him", "you", "I", et. al. They have also "redefined" the Lord Jesus Christ as a "politically-correct" "tolerant", "lovey-dovey", "partying", "hip-hop", "rapping-rocker". Songs such as, dc Talk's "Jesus Freak", et al. clearly describe "another Jesus" than the Jesus Christ of the Bible. In 2 Corinthians 11:4, the apostle Paul warns of "another Jesus".

    SOURCE
     
  10. Molly

    Molly
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 15, 2000
    Messages:
    2,303
    Likes Received:
    0
    Exactly,Enda.

    [​IMG]
     
  11. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2002
    Messages:
    3,417
    Likes Received:
    0
    Songs such as, dc Talk's "Jesus Freak", et al. clearly describe "another Jesus" than the Jesus Christ of the Bible. In 2 Corinthians 11:4, the apostle Paul warns of "another Jesus".

    ------

    Exactly how is this?

    Separated, I cut myself clean
    From a past that comes back in my darkest of dreams
    Been apprehended by a spiritual force
    And a grace that replaced all the me I've divorced (II Corinthians 5:17)

    I saw a man with tat on his big fat belly
    It wiggled around like marmalade jelly
    It took me a while to catch what it said
    Cause I had to match the rhythm
    Of his belly with my head
    'Jesus Saves' is what it raved in a typical tattoo green
    He stood on a box in the middle of the city
    And claimed he had a dream (How is this anri-Scriptural?)

    (chorus)
    What will people think
    When they hear that I'm a Jesus freak
    What will people do when they find that it's true
    I don't really care if they label me a Jesus freak
    There ain't no disguising the truth

    (The world doesn't always understand Christians and will persecute them. The group says that it doesn't matter, because they will continue pursuing the Truth.)

    Kamikaze, my death is gain
    I've been marked by my Maker
    A peculiar display
    The high and lofty, they see me as weak
    Cause I won't live and die for the power they seek

    (Again, the group says that there may be persecution, but they won't deny their faith.)

    There was a man from the desert with naps in his head
    The sand that he walked was also his bed
    The words that he spoke made the people assume
    There wasn't too much left in the upper room
    With skins on his back and hair on his face
    They thought he was strange by the locusts he ate
    The Pharisees tripped when they heard him speak
    Until the king took the head of this Jesus freak

    (John the Baptist - quite Scriptural)

    (repeat chorus 2x)

    People say I'm strange, does it make me a stranger
    That my best friend was born in a manger
    People say I'm strange, does it make me a stranger
    That my best friend was born in a manger

    ------

    So what about this song proclaims another Christ?
     
  12. Aaron

    Aaron
    Expand Collapse
    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    15,685
    Likes Received:
    242
    Replying to Yod's posts:

    http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=000592;p=6#000085

    and

    http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=000592;p=6#000089

    Whose talking about a town? I said they didn't use instruments in Christian worship, and I presented the incontrovertible evidence later in that thread. They emulated the synagogue form which also shunned instruments even though there were Levite choirs and orchestras in the Temple.

    Are you saying that Israel under the Law was not an infant in need of milk and not able to handle strong meat? But later on in the thread I had to make the connection for you to show that the sacrificial laws were the form of worship for the Jewish people, not merely the prescription for the remission of sin.

    So, you see, I insinuated nothing. I merely faithfully related the testimony of the Holy Ghost.

    I didn't apply it to music. I used it to show that Paul said babes in Christ think carnally, not spiritually, and that he exhorts them to grow up and put away childish things. After all, genuine love is the ultimate goal of all our discipline:

    And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, and to virtue knowledge, and to knowledge temperance, and to temperance patience, and to patience brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness, charity.

    Oh please! I am unloving because I used your charismatic jargon as evidence that CCM and "charismania" go hand in hand? Sorry you feel that way.

    No it doesn't. It speaks of genuine love, and one thing it says is that love rejoices in the TRUTH. It doesn't say that love is more important than knowledge, it says that if I have knowledge without love, then the knowledge has not profited me anything.

    Now, the whole reason I brought up the carnal=babe/infant premise is because you, indeed, the whole CCM crowd, seem to go to the OT and interpret the carnal concessions made to Israel under the Law as an order of worship for the church.

    The early church had the OT, and their services were nothing like what you tried to describe.

    No, they had to deal with the argument of the Judaizers saying that one had to keep the Law of Moses to be saved.

    Big difference.

    Big BIG difference.

    You need to read a well-known and univerally accepted commentary on Acts 15.

    And Acts 15 has nothing whatsoever to do with the discussion at hand.
     
  13. yod

    yod
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2003
    Messages:
    110
    Likes Received:
    0
    This will probably have to be discussed another another thread because


    they had to deal with the argument of the Judaizers saying that GENTILES had to keep the Law of Moses


    The decision was that gentiles didn't have to embrace the jewish culture because God had already given them salvation through the Name of Jesus and evidenced by the Holy Spirit.


    That particular phrase appears only in the book of Hebrews and it is speaking of a particular congregation...not to Israel throughout all of history. So yes, I am disagreeing with the liberty of interpretation you used on that verse.


    The Psalms are a "concession"?
     
  14. yod

    yod
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2003
    Messages:
    110
    Likes Received:
    0
    Which doctrine?

    There have been heretical doctrines and teachers throughout all of christendom so I think you must mean the great apostasy we see sprouting up everywhere?

    You might have a good point there...maybe there is a correlation but as I responded in another place I think it's the people instead of the music.

    So what is the excuse for southern gospel? :D


    [​IMG] I'd love to see you doing that!!!

    Can you dance?


    I don't know why I feel the need to defend "charismatics" except for one thing.

    I believe in a church universal. I see denominational divisions as artificial and man made. I am equally as defensive when a "charismatic" says that Baptists are narrow-minded bigots.

    We, the Body of Christ, have such a great common bond that it just bugs me to see christians assuming any kind of superior stance over other christians they simply don't understand.

    Yes, "charismatics" can be fruits and nuts. Baptists can be rather cold and dry. I love them all. I wish we could find a balance.

    Not all CCM is bad theology. Not all modern worship is touchy-feely (though I do agree with the general premise)

    Will you also admit that some horrible hymns were written?


    I think the problem with church bouncing is a different issue. Yes, the glitzy churches are getting a lot of attention from those who are in it for "me" but music is not the problem.

    It's one of authority.


    Is there a forum for someone who doesn't claim a baptist denominational position to discuss that?
     
  15. Dale McNamee

    Dale McNamee
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2003
    Messages:
    555
    Likes Received:
    0
  16. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2002
    Messages:
    3,417
    Likes Received:
    0
  17. Eric B

    Eric B
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2001
    Messages:
    4,806
    Likes Received:
    2
    It is true that the anti-CCM people, after refuting music-as-evangelistic tool, do then contradict themselves sometimes. In the class I took, (using Tim Fisher and Calvin Johanssen's books), they cited Psalms 40:3 (regarding the "new song"— "and many shall see it and fear and shall trust the Lord") as if to suggest that we would more impress the world if we stuck with the traditional styles. The argument is that the traditional style is the "Christian" style; the "new song" corresponding to our "new life in Christ", and this is the "light" that shines to the world, by which god leads people into the truth. Fine, but this cannot be restricted to one style (which actually is the old song to many people, as the church's past was often very corrupt, even with the traditional music). And the world is only being driven farther away by our hostile attitude toward them, and our trying to stay in our own little subculture, including our own music. The Bible speaks of "difference" ("new life", etc), but these people can't comprehend or appreciate it, because it is spiritually discerned (1 Cor. 2:14). For this reason both approaches of trying to avoid styles to look "different", OR the depending on of the use of those styles as our means of winning people are misguided. We are to depend on God to lead us in winning people. We are not to try to depend on devices of our own making, whether old styles or new.
    See Reaching the World
     
  18. Gib

    Gib
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2003
    Messages:
    27,256
    Likes Received:
    13
    If I start listening to CCM~praise music at 2pm for an hour and then listen to hymns at 3pm for another hour, will that cancel out the need to raise my hands and sway to the music. [​IMG]
     
  19. Joshua Rhodes

    Joshua Rhodes
    Expand Collapse
    <img src=/jrhodes.jpg>

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2003
    Messages:
    3,944
    Likes Received:
    0
    Is this thread talking about "Contemporary Christian Music" or are we still using "CCM" to refer to any style of Christian music, including Praise and Worship? The way "CCM" is being used by some on this thread is entirely too wide and diverse a population of songs. You simply cannot use the same argument to explore the inadequacies of "CCM" and "Worship Music" which is what many are trying to do. Pick one and stick with it. It seems like when either side gets frustrated, they switch gears and begin speaking of another branch.

    Question for the "ANTI" side: You are purporting the removal and destruction of ALL music labeled "CCM," "Praise and Worship," "Christian Rock," or any other derivitive? This music which has "infiltrated" our churches is to be removed, taken out of the stores, taken off the radio, and never written, produced, sung, or spoken of again? I am trying to follow your conclusions to their ultimate "repair" and am wondering if this is where you want to go. This is the only question or comment I have on the subject, at least that I'll share... So we get rid of it all, and then what?

    In His Grip,
    joshua

    PS: It's good to be back. This weekend went really well, and our band got back home tonight. At the youth event we lead worship for, 3 high schoolers accepted Christ for the first time, and there were 9 youth who confessed addictions and problems they'll be receiving professional counceling for. Thanks for your prayers.
     
  20. yod

    yod
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2003
    Messages:
    110
    Likes Received:
    0
    oh that is good..

    if I listen to Country & Western for an hour, then listen to CCM for an hour that cancels out my desire to get drunk and cheat on my wife.

    (it's a joke)
     

Share This Page

Loading...