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Domino Effect not just in the Power Grid

Discussion in 'Music Ministry' started by Dr. Bob, Aug 15, 2003.

  1. Molly

    Molly New Member

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    I agree with Aaron on this and do see his point. It is the style,the genre, that is the problem as well as lyrics.

    If you sang *When I survey the Wondrous Cross* to a stripper genre music(we all know what it sounds like)...how would it make you feel? Reverent? Would you be consumed with Christ's sacrfice and sufferings...would that *style* make you think of something other than God?

    And you could have really bad doctrinally incorrect words to a reverent,set apart style and it would be no good either.

    I think this is his point!


    (But,Mike,that was a funny statement....I try really hard to have a sense of humor....*really hard* being the key words.)

    Molly
     
  2. dianetavegia

    dianetavegia Guest

    razz·ma·tazz (răz'mə-tăz')
    n. Slang.

    A flashy action or display intended to bewilder, confuse, or deceive.

    Ambiguous or evasive language; double talk.

    Ebullient energy; vim.

    [Perhaps alteration of RAZZLE-DAZZLE.]
     
  3. yod

    yod Member

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    This is starting to digress into pure sillyness.


    The very definition of music is repetition of melody and rhythmic meter. There has never been a song that didn't have those 2 elements


    And you think there wasn't dancing in the Temple or synagogue? Just because there is no mention of the priests dancing while they performed the sacrifices does not mean that no one danced within the walls.

    You have obviously never been in a synagogue which is OK...but you are speaking out of ignorance if you think that music and dancing have not ALWAYS been part of the worship in the hebrew economy.

    It's older than Moses...
     
  4. Mike McK

    Mike McK New Member

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    But do you understand that he's trying to condemn CCM based on what is not CCM? Do you understand that the words are not about "an altered state of consciousness"?

    OK, I don't want to open up another can of worms here, but I'm wagering that I'm the only one here who knows that strippers dance to a wide variety of music, too broad to classify as "stripper genre music".

    Actually, I've seen strippers dance to Van Halen's "Dreams" but strippers are the last thing I associate with the song. When I was in therapy, the chorus of the song was somewhat of an anthem for us and I can never hear the song without remembering the Bible's words, "when I am weak, He is strong" and "I can do all things through Christ Who strengthens me".

    Second, in my church, we often do "Amazing Grace" to the tune of the Eagles' "Peaceful, Easy Feeling", with the chorus rewritten "Cause I've got a peaceful, easy feeling and I know You won't let me down, now that you've set me on solid ground" and the bridge, "Oh Lord you search my heart and know me, You are the lover of my soul, with Your grace you draw me close, by Your blood I am made whole".

    No one who's ever heard it has ever suggested that it was anything less than worshipful and I don't think you could.

    We also do a nice version to the tune of the Beach Boys' "Surfer Girl", which is very reverent.

    Fine. If that was his point, then why did he have to dig up a thirty year old non-Christian song? Why couldn't he have judged CCM on it's own merits for once?

    Thank you.
     
  5. Mike McK

    Mike McK New Member

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    Diane, where did you find this definition? Did it say anything at all about "razzmatazz" being a style of music?
     
  6. dianetavegia

    dianetavegia Guest

    I'm much older than most of you and remember it as RazzAmatazz

    Text (15 of 42) in Dixieland & San Francisco Jazz

    The Showboat Connection, P.O. Box 2246, Springfield, OH 45501 USA
    Fax: 937-324-5608 E-Mail: [email protected]

    www.showboatconnection.com/
    To see this book, click on that link.

    Razzamatazz & Jazz
    TITLE: 20 Years Walkin' The Line
    CD: STEREO

    Item Number: CD-175-1 - Price: $14.95
    Also available on double tape cassette set Item Number: T-175-1 - Price: $19.90 How To ORDER

    Featuring: Lynn Fullerton - Trumpet; Jerry Steinke - Saxophone; Paul Fertig - Piano; Aaron Jackson - Tuba, Guitar; Steve Kreis - Drums, Wall Boot.

    Program:
    1. Copenhagen 2:58
    2. Walkin' The Line 3:00
    3. Wabash Strut 3:47
    4. How Come Ya Do Me 3:37
    5. Just A Little While To Stay Here 2:58
    6. Shimmy Like My Sister Kate 2:56
    7. Over In Gloryland 2:37
    8. Do You Know What It Means To Miss New Orleans 5:30
    9. Bill Bailey 4:11
    10. I've Found A New Baby 2:44
    11. Rose of Washington Square 4:07
    12. Sittin' On Top Of The World 2:05
    13. Lovin' You 3:12
    14. Just A Closer Walk With Thee 5:30
    15. Down By The Riverside 3:00
    16. Muskrat Ramble 2:20
     
  7. dianetavegia

    dianetavegia Guest

    Muzak for the Masses?
    Radiohead and Steely Dan reach the limits of their experimentation
    http://www.poppolitics.com/articles/2003-07-13-radiohead.shtml

    I searched using Gurunet and came up with many musical pages using razzmatazz. Melanie Griffith in Chicago gave it a razzmatazz touch, etc.

    The definition was from a regular dictionary.

    Diane
     
  8. Mike McK

    Mike McK New Member

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    Diane,

    I understand that "razzmatazz" or, in this case "razzamatazz" is a slang word used to describe ragtime and Dixieland music of that period. My question is, is there a distinct musical style called "razzmatazz"? I don't believe there is and I can't find any evidence that there is.
     
  9. dianetavegia

    dianetavegia Guest

    Like Be-Bop?

    Razzmatazz reminds me of Cab Calloway and "Minnie the Moocher". The lyrics and the style are confusing and wild.

    Diane
     
  10. Mike McK

    Mike McK New Member

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    That didn't come along until long after ragtime and Dixieland.

    I would think that's more house blues or jump blues or even jive than jazz.

    What's confusing about them? :confused:
     
  11. dianetavegia

    dianetavegia Guest

    What I was asking is, Is Be-Bop really a musical style or a 'pet name' for a type of music?

    I think of roadhouses and razzmatazz. By confusing... He taught her how to kick the gong around (dance? drugs?). Wild and confusing for 1930!

    Folks, now here's the story 'bout Minnie the Moocher,
    She was a red-hot hootchie-cootcher,
    She was the roughest, toughest frail,
    But Minnie had a heart as big as a whale.

    [Call and response scat chorus differs every time. The following is simplified:]
    Hi-de-hi-de-hi-di-hi!
    Ho-de-ho-de-ho-de-ho!
    He-de-he-de-he-de-he!
    Ho-de-ho-de-ho!

    Now, she messed around with a bloke named Smoky,
    She loved him though he was cokie,
    He took her down to Chinatown,
    He showed her how to kick the gong around.

    Now, she had a dream about the king of Sweden,
    He gave her things that she was needin',
    He gave her a home built of gold and steel,
    A diamond car with a platinum wheel.

    Now, he gave her his townhouse and his racing horses,
    Each meal she ate was a dozen courses;
    She had a million dollars worth of nickels and dimes,
    And she sat around and counted them all a billion times.

    Poor Min, poor Min, poor Min.
     
  12. Mike McK

    Mike McK New Member

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    No, unlike Aaron's "razzmatazz", BeBop is a real type of music.

    Here's a brief discription from AllMusicGuide.com:

    Also known as bebop, Bop was a radical new music that developed gradually in the early '40s and exploded in 1945. The main difference between bop and swing is that the soloists engaged in chordal (rather than melodic) improvisation, often discarding the melody altogether after the first chorus and using the chords as the basis for the solo. Ensembles tended to be unisons, most jazz groups were under seven pieces, and the soloist was free to get as adventurous as possible as long as the overall improvisation fit into the chord structure. Since the virtuoso musicians were getting away from using the melodies as the basis for their solos (leading some listeners to ask "Where's the melody?") and some of the tempos were very fast, bop divorced itself from popular music and a dancing audience, uplifting jazz to an art music but cutting deeply into its potential commercial success. Ironically the once-radical bebop style has become the foundation for all of the innovations that followed and now can be almost thought of as establishment music. Among its key innovators were altoist Charlie Parker, trumpeter Dizzy Gillespie, pianist Bud Powell, drummer Max Roach, and pianist/composer Thelonious Monk. — Scott Yanow

    Some Important Albums:

    Dizzy Gillespie with Roy Eldridge
    Dizzy Gillespie [1954] Oscar Peterson Trio with Clark Terry
    Clark Terry [1964]
    Way Out West [OJC/Contemporary]
    Sonny Rollins [1991] Sonny Stitt/Bud Powel/J.J. Johnson
    Sonny Stitt/Bud Powel/J.J. Johnson [1949]
    Genius of Modern Music, Vol. 2
    Thelonious Monk [1951] Boss Tenors: Straight Ahead from Chicago 1961
    Gene Ammons with Sonny Stitt [1961]
    Complete Blue Note Recordings
    Thelonious Monk [1947] Taylor's Wailers
    Art Taylor [1956]
    Blue Lights, Vol. 2
    Kenny Burrell [1958] Chase
    Dexter Gordon [2001]
    Prestige First Sessions, Vol. 2
    Sonny Stitt [1950] Genius of Modern Music, Vol. 1
    Thelonious Monk [1947]
    Amazing Bud Powell, Vol. 2 [Expanded]
    Bud Powell [1951] Brilliant Corners
    Thelonious Monk [1956]


    Gene Ammons
    Louie Bellson
    Walter Bishop, Jr.
    Ray Brown
    Kenny Burrell
    Don Byas
    Charlie Christian
    Sonny Clark
    Kenny Clarke
    Al Cohn
    Richie Cole
    Tadd Dameron
    Eddie "Lockjaw" Davis
    Miles Davis
    Walter Davis, Jr.
    Buddy DeFranco
    Lou Donaldson
    George Duvivier
    Billy Eckstine
    Teddy Edwards
    Herb Ellis
    Tal Farlow
    Art Farmer
    Ella Fitzgerald
    Tommy Flanagan
    Erroll Garner
    Terry Gibbs
    Dizzy Gillespie


    "Razzmatazz" is an adjective associated with Dixieland and ragtime so you probably wouldn't find it in many roadhouses, since Dixieland and jazz was prevalent in the cities, particularly Chicago, St. Louis and New Orleans.

    I think you'd be much mor likely to find jump blues and house blues or the very early (T-Bone Walker era) R&B in roadhouses.

    It's about drugs. She was a coke fiend. Like the "Annie and Henry" series, the song spawned a series of follow ups including "Minnie the Moocher's Wedding Day", "Minnie the Moocher is Dead" and "Minnie the Moocher at the Morgue" so, evidently, she was a bigger coke fiend than we thought. Poor Min, poor Min.

    Also, I don't know if you realize this or not but many of the songs of that era were full of sex and drug referrences. We have this idea that this is a recent thing but there was as much, if not moreso, then.
     
  13. dianetavegia

    dianetavegia Guest

    Thanks Mike. I was not aware of that! My uncle Fred played drums in a 'honkey-tonk' and I'd hear some of the music he played. He's 11 years older than me. Mamaw used to beat him with a razor strap over that music!
    I've led a very sheltered life.

    Diane
     
  14. Mike McK

    Mike McK New Member

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    Happy to help.

    By the way, I just wanted to add something to the above discription of be-bop, just for trivia's sake. In the thrities and forties, most of the big bands, including Glann Miller and both of the Dorsey Brothers, had side bands who did bebop.

    It's still some of their best music.
     
  15. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Woah! I don't care if anyone thinks razzmatazz is a form of jazz or not. If you would care to check out the URL I supplied, you would see it in a long list of descriptive terms.

    It seems Mike's agenda is to try to prove that razzmatazz is not a genre. I don't care if it is or not. It was a common term used to describe dixieland jazz. The whole point of the old thread, contrary to Mike's false assertions was not that there was something called razzmatazz, but that the Church did not use popular musical styles of the day.

    Let's put this thread back on track. No more posts about this. I'll zap the next one from my high and mighty seat of power.
     
  16. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson Active Member

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    I don't need too. What will he know about it that Donald J. Grout hasn't said? And he will go to Grout because Grout wrote the textbook he used to study music history. </font>[/QUOTE]Considering that they have completed a Ph.D. in the field, and, as such, have written dissortations along with numerous other research topics, one can imagine that they use much more than Grout.
     
  17. Pete

    Pete New Member

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    ARGH! :eek: Molly, please...great example to make the point, but...never use it again ok? :eek: I think I'm going to have nightmares for a month :eek: [​IMG]

    Just did a mad dash for my Mandate: All For Jesus CD. Hopefully a few times listening to When I Survey from that will stop "The Stripper" going through my head [​IMG]

    Pete
     
  18. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    When they palt their music, ooh that modern music
    They like it with a lot of style
    But t's still that same old back beat rhythm
    That really drives 'em wild
     
  19. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
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    McK said:
    Boy, I missed that one. I've been here longer than you, and I don't remember that. Lost amongst all his other arguments, I guess. :rolleyes:
    Perhaps he was thinking of the song "Razzamatazz" by Quincy Jones. He is considered a jazz performer, though that song was more disco/funk.
    Aaron said:
    Generally, when you think of voodoo ritual dance, you think of really fast drumming, and even on slower dances, it does not sound exactly like our contemporary music. There have been enough films and performances of tribal life shown on TV and elsewhere for anyone to get a sense of what voodoo ritual was like, and it's only real connection to "jazz" or "rock" as a whole, is those forms not following the dry marching or waltzing formula of traditional music, and some elements were borrowed and refashioned. But the music as a whole does not look or sound like voodoo. This is an overgeneralization used to try to make traditional look like God's only style.
    A significant number of them. I never said all. I don't see why that is so hard to believe. If you look at a lot of their writings, you can see this. And We have the NT epistles warning us of many of those false doctrines and practices coming in. But no, we think all of Church history was totally biblical until they brought that rock&roll in in the 1960's. :rolleyes:
     
  20. JonathanDT

    JonathanDT New Member

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    Actually, I have no idea what stripper music sounds like, so I bet that if I heard it to When I Survey The Wondrous Cross I would think about the same thing I always do when I hear the song. I HAVE heard it put to a soft rock music by Skillet in concert, and it was tremendous.
     
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