Dont Arminians Agree That Man is Spiritual Unable to get to God ALONE?

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by Yeshua1, Oct 17, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    17,098
    Likes Received:
    49
    Doesn't it teach that sinners are dead in the sense unable to come to God without helped by the Spirit, so no real Free Will even for Arms then?
     
  2. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    The scriptures nowhere teach that unsaved men lack the ability to believe, you cannot show a single verse of scripture to support that. That is a purely man-made false doctrine.

    What scripture shows is that man is unable to come to God because of ignorance. No man is born with the knowledge of the true God or Jesus Christ.

    Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

    Romans 10:14 absolutely implies inability, but not because men lack free will. What men lack is knowledge. Paul's question demands the answer that no man can believe in Jesus unless that man has heard of Jesus.

    But this verse also implies that this is the ONLY reason man cannot believe in Jesus. Paul does not mention ANY other condition that would prevent a man from believing in Jesus.

    So, man IS born unable to believe in Jesus, but not because he lacks free will as many falsely teach.
     
  3. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    The title and the op don't match up. Of course they believe God must reach out to man first, but that in no way negates man's free agency.
     
  4. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,121
    Likes Received:
    0
    Wow, another thread from our friend. :smilewinkgrin:

    Scripture teaches that believers believe by the power of God, the same power that rose Christ from the dead.
     
  5. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    I notice you failed to give a reference for the scripture that says this.
     
  6. JonC

    JonC
    Expand Collapse
    Lifelong Disciple
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    6,982
    Likes Received:
    371
    Doesn't matter what Scripture says - he's asking what Arminians teach. :tongue3:

    (And webdog is right - the op and title don't match).
     
  7. Winman

    Winman
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    0
    I beg to disagree, P4T said "scripture teaches that men believe by the power of God"

    I would like to see the scripture that supports this statement. Many people claim the scriptures say things that they do not say at all.
     
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    17,098
    Likes Received:
    49
    how so?

    Both cals and Arms would hold that due to the fall, unless God responds to us first by Grace, NONE of us have free will to respond to jesus on our own thr "free will", correct?
     
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Yes.

    No one CAN come to God unless drawn to Him.

    "I will DRAW ALL unto Me" John 12:32.

    For God so loved the WORLD "yes really".

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    38,364
    Likes Received:
    790
    I have no idea what "arms" hold to on this. But I can tell you that being unable to come to God unless God first reaches out has nothing to do with free will. God is not interfering with man's will nor does scripture suggest anywhere that God decreed that He will not let man come to Him prior to an offer of grace.

    What it does say is that no matter what man's will is God gets the credit. (John 1:13) God gets the credit because even if man has the will (not saying he does) to come to God salvation is not possible even then unless God provides it and offers it. Man cannot force God's hand no matter how much of his will wants it. Only God can provide it because He is the sovereign authority, sovereign creator, sovereign judge of all things.

    This whole battle over how much of who's will is involved is a distraction from the reality of the matter. Neither does it honor God.
     
  11. JohnDeereFan

    JohnDeereFan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2009
    Messages:
    4,628
    Likes Received:
    11
    The only thing I know of that Arminians agree on is that those who hold to Reformed theology are Satan incarnate and should be treated as such.

    But in answer to your question, yes.
     
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    As funny as that is - you have a point.

    There is the general sense on some of these topic areas that acrimony, and raging vitriol are the solution to every problem.

    Christ taught us in Matt 16 that this is not to be the case when he tells his disciples to "beware of the leaven of the scribes and Pharisees".

    He could have launched into a lot of acrimony and vitriol against his own disciples for still clinging to the traditions of men (so fully condemned in Mark 7) but instead he simply warns them gently to beware of the teaching of those that they held in such high regard.

    In my book the acrimony and vitriol so often resorted to be certain posters is not at all the Bible model for the Christian.

    And this is true - be they Calvinist or Arminian that resort to it.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    Further proving there is not a whole lot you know or add to the discussion.
     
  14. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2010
    Messages:
    18,936
    Likes Received:
    96
    Again, what world are we discussing .....the world as it is or the one as God will have it?
     
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Both. God would have all saved for "He is not WILLING that any should perish" and yet - due to the "Free will" element that He sovereignly chose "He came to His own and His own received Him not" John 1.

    God is not willing for any to perish - and yet many perish. Not because they must perish or because of some supposed arbitrary selection on the part of God.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #15 BobRyan, Oct 19, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 19, 2013
  16. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,185
    Likes Received:
    207
    You consistenly either jerk scriptures out of context as you do above by omitting the word "usward" or take scriptures addressed to saved people and treat them as though they were addressed to the lost.
     
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    Biblicist -

    My two previous posts on this thread were from John 1 and Mark 7 and 2Peter 3. If you wildly imagine a missing "usward" in those posts as if a Bible writer had said "God does not love the World he just loves us" - please show it.

    If you are just ranting a do not expect to be taken seriously -- well... you have the free will to make such choices.

    In the mean time "God so loved the WORLD... yes really!" needs to be taken into consideration.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    17,098
    Likes Received:
    49
    So you claim that God intended death of Jesus to be for all sinners, and that he is not willing to have any perish, yet He also at same time had Pharoah and others made as vessals fit for destruction for sale of His people, and also chose JUST to redeem and saved a remnant of isrealites at time of Christ!

    And if God intended to have all sinners have their debt to Him paid by death of Jesus, and His will is that act was intended to save all sinners, we would be Robb bell, and have Universalism!
     
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    No not me - the Bible does. For example 1John 2:2

    2 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

    No not me - but the Bible does. For example 2 Peter 3


    9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance

    Yet as we see in John 1 "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him NOT"

    So also in the case of Matt 23 Where Christ said "O Jerusalem... how I WANTED to spare your children.. but YOU would not"

    Therefore Paul says we have this ministry of reconciliation and we "beg YOU on behalf of Christ - be reconciled to God"

    God's foreknowledge never vanishes the way that Calvinists sometimes imagine. In the Bible we are told "Pharaoh hardened his heart" and also that "God hardened Pharaoh's heart". Both are true - because God turned up the heat on Pharaoh slowly allowing him to harden his heart gradually. But even the mixed multitude that followed along with Israel - were not hardened in that manner.


    The remnant result --- is the result of the choosing of individuals - not the rejection of God.

    God never says "sure I could have called more to repentance and they would be saved - but I just don't feel like saving so many - I want a good portion to burn in hell".


    Only if you did not understand the Lev 16 doctrine that God gives on the subject of Atonement.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    14,185
    Likes Received:
    207
    You make a great Demoncratic politician but a poor Bible theologion. Sorry I am not going to take the bait of your false dichotomy of either or as your whole statement is false. The world that God loves is a world of all races, genders and classes - all without distinction not all without exception and the absolute proof is not only God hated Esau but hates all WORKERS of iniquity and hell was full of them under the wrath of God when these verses were written.

    Second, the term "usward" is found in the 1 Peter 3 verse which you repeatedly omit and thus pervert the text.

    Third, John 1 is speaking of the physical world as all humans are spoken of as coming into this world due to physical life/light (Jn. 1:4) given to them by their creator and those who do receive him (v. 12) is due to spiritual life given them by their Creator (v. 13). Those referred to his "own" refer to the ethnic nation of Israel who rejected him as a whole.

    As for Mark 7, that fits SDA perfectly and the false prophet Ellen G. White and her false prophecies and false teachings.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Loading...