Don't let any T.D. Jakes heresy invade your churches!

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Spoudazo, Feb 14, 2005.

  1. Spoudazo

    Spoudazo
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    Why such a strong term as "heresy," well simply because he doesn't believe in the Trinity!

    This is taken from his own words, which were aired on Alpha and Omega's web broadcast,

    Go to this website and you can stream the Real Audio. In it, "Oneness Theology" (Sabellianism, Modlamism, whatever you want to call it) is exposed. For more information how this is just an old heresy brought up again, you can read in Schaff's _Church History_ [​IMG]

    Here's the link,
    http://www.straitgate.com/aom/dl/02.htm

    Look for this,
    "March 16, 2002
    Oneness Pentecostalism
    The Teaching of T.D. Jakes Exposed
    Simon Escobedo and Eddie Dalcour"
     
  2. Spoudazo

    Spoudazo
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  3. Spoudazo

    Spoudazo
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  4. Marcia

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  5. Spoudazo

    Spoudazo
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    Thanks [​IMG]
     
  6. fcs25

    fcs25
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    The problem is that a large part of believers do not bother to research various teachers and their root beliefs.Deception runs through many of the protestant denominations.
     
  7. Ben W

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    For me the Trinity and the Nicean Creed are the test for any ministry. Failure to recognise both is a clear indicator of either a cult or a heretic!
     
  8. Spoudazo

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    Yes, it is very important that they clarify their beliefs regarding the very character of God.

    A friend of mine will soon begin working on his dissertation for his PhD in Theology so I'm trying to convince him to write on the error of Sabellianism/Modalism, otherwise known as Oneness theology. [​IMG]

    We ought to be on the "look out" for him.

    ****BY THE WAY, THE GAITHERS HAD A SINGING CRUSADE WITH HIM**** You can find that "Christian" CD at Wal-Mart. [​IMG]
     
  9. Marcia

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    There are one or two Oneness followers and a few who say they are not Oneness but who defend them who post on the BB in the "Other Christian Religions" forum. We've had quite a few verbal battles there.

    Phillips, Craig, and Dean are Oneness pastors but their CD's are sold and bought by Christians everywhere. They even sing in Christian churches.
    :rolleyes:
     
  10. Spoudazo

    Spoudazo
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    Wow, I didn't know that!

    I think I remember Dr. White writing something about them, but I thought it was that they were singing w/ a oneness pentacostalist, not that they were one! wow
     
  11. Marcia

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    Here's an excellent article on Phillips, Craig, and Dean. It's on James White's site, but the article is by Eric Nielsen.
    http://www.aomin.org/PCD.html
     
  12. atestring

    atestring
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    First let me say that I believe in the Trinity but I cannot deny that Oneness have an argument that says that the word trinity is not in the Bible. I do not believe in Three God's.
    I believe in One God and that the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Jesus Bodily.
    Is this trinity or oneness?
    I have been baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost? I admit that in The book of Acts that there were cases where believers were Baptized in Jesus Name. A oneness man ask me to give him one example of a baptism in the Bible that was in the name of the Father, Son And Holy Ghost..The only example I gave was in Acts 19. When PAul ask "have you you recieved The Holy Ghost since you believed?" They had not heard if there be a Holy Ghost and Paul ask then under who have you been baptized. THis implies that Paul Baptized in the name of the Father Son and Holy Ghost. However the next passage says that they had been baptized under Johns Baptism and then they were Baptized in the name of JEsus.
    This only tells me that both sides have validity.
    For this reason though i consider myself trinitarian I cannot break fellowship with Oneness or hold the trinitarian doctrine as a litmus test for Christianity. If Oneness are bought by the blood of Jesus and come to Jesus for the remission of Sin then they are my Brothers and Sisters.
    There are many Brothers and Sisters in Christ that have diffeerence but not all differences are worth dividing over.
    As for the Nicean Creed I cannot hold to this as a litmus test.
    The only creed that matters is the Bible.
    If someone doesn't agree with every detal of the Baptist Faith and Message ( or the version that you agree with) dose that make someone a heretic or cult member.
    If someone does not whole heartedly agree with every detail of the Westminster Confession are they cultish? What if a man believes in the Priesthood of the home to mean that He leads his family in the Lords Supper which would be forbidden by the Wewstminster Confesssion does this make them a heretic?

    [ February 20, 2005, 04:37 PM: Message edited by: atestring ]
     
  13. Daniel David

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    Ben W, that is a good start. You should also include the modern cultic practice of 'tongues' that dominate all charismatic groups.
     
  14. atestring

    atestring
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    Does that mean that Peter, Paul, The Church at Ephesus, the 120 on the day of Pentecost, and the Church in Corinth were cultic?
    AE Shucks!!! I forgot!!!
    AT 3:03 pm on March 3 AD 59 Pacific Standard Time tongues ceased. A man Was Praying in tongues and God Shut his mouth like he shut the lions that were looking at Daniel.
    Thank God for the book of Hezekiah that tell us this!!!
     
  15. gb93433

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    Why be that light? It should include making disciples and questioning regarding universalism. Sometime in your church in your conversations about salvation and who will be saved see how many believe in a form of universalism. It is shocking in the Baptist churches. I believe a lot of it is because many pastors teach salvation by coming forward and not the personal responsibility of evangelism.
     
  16. Marcia

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    Of course the word "Trinity" is not in the Bible. That does not mean it's not true or biblical. It's just a term to describe what the Bible shows. And it's not 3 gods -- it's One God but 3 Persons (beings) in one Godhead. If Jesus and the HS are distinct from God the father, then that is the Trinity. If you think Jesus IS the Father and the Father IS the HS, and the HS IS Jesus, etc., then that is Oneness and it is not Baptist (nor Christian).

    Well, the Oneness doctrine, known as Sabellianism, was denounced in the 3rd century as heresy. Christians cannot have Christian fellowship with those who deny the biblical nature of God. Oneness is not Christian. They say that God appears in 3 modes -- the Father, the Son, and the HS. This means that everytime Jesus says "My Father" in the Bible (which is quite a few times), he is talking about himself. Do you believe that? It means Jesus is the "flesh of God [the Father]" (this is how some Oneness people term it).

    They do not have the right Jesus. They are not brothers and sisters in Christ anymore than the Mormons or JW's. And they do not consider you a Christian. I urge you to read up on this. Oneness beliefs:
    Also see
    http://www.carm.org/oneness.htm
    http://www.watchman.org/profile/onenesspro.htm
    http://www.christiandefense.org/oneness.htm
    http://www.believersweb.org/view.cfm?ID=673
     
  17. GeneMBridges

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    First let me say that I believe in the Trinity but I cannot deny that Oneness have an argument that says that the word trinity is not in the Bible. I do not believe in Three God's.

    Just so you understand that all kinds of terms are not mentioned in the Bible. This does not mean the argument is valid on their part. The issue is whether or not Trinitarianism is taught in the Bible.

    I believe in One God and that the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Jesus Bodily.

    Is this trinity or oneness?

    Well, that would depend on what you mean by the statement. If you mean that God is one Being that relates to us in three different modes, then that is Oneness. If you mean that there is one Being called "God" that is composed of three different Persons, all of which are equal in essence and rightly called God, then your statement reflects Trinitarianism.

    Trinity: Each of these is true: There is One God. There are Three Persons within the Godhead. The Father is fully God. The Son is God (Jesus is fully God...God the Son...and fully man) and the Holy Spirit is fully God. The Father is not the Son or Spirit. The Son is not the Father or Spirit. The Spirit is not the Father or Son. They are one in essence, substance, and attributes. They are different in role and relationship to one another within their Unity as a single Being.

    Oneness Doctrine, however, extends beyond their modalism, which is a sure sign more is going on, and why I will break fellowship with them:

    To them Jesus had a human nature perceived as the Son and a divine nature perceived as the Father. This makes no sense, and, while the faith of her people are found in her creeds, not her explanations, more often than not they all follow the explanations, which logically mean there is no propitation for sin, since there is no wrath of the Father that can be propitated by the Son. God is simply satisfying His own wrath and dying in the process. This robs the atonement of any logic at all. They resolve this by saying the human part is what died, okay, but then that begs the question of the reason for the Incarnation, for which I have yet to see an adequate answer that does not involve them rending apart the hypostatic union in the process. What about penal substitution for sins in our place. In that view only the human part of man dies in our place, not the Son as a Person. Orthodoxy says that it was the human part of Jesus that died on the cross, not the divine, because God can not die, but it also teaches that the Father saw the suffering of the son and His wrath was satisfied. The question then is, how was God satisfied in the atonement if the Son is not a separate Person from the Father, since a person has the ability to communicate -- under normal conditions, and satisfaction requires some sort of recognition of an act of some kind by someone other than the person performing the act. God the Father is the one who is said to have His wrath satisfied, so who was God recognizing as a separate Identity that did this on our behalf?

    Baptism is necessary for salvation, and it must adhere to immersion. I'm a Baptist, but I will accept other modes as long as they are credo, not paedo! They will not do this.

    This is beyond baptismal regeneration for these folks. This is a prerequiste for salvation itself. If driven to the wall, even a Discples of Christ believer in baptismal regeneration will find a way around their doctrine. Oneness folks seem unable to answer the question: If baptism is essential for salvation, then what happens to someone who repents of sin, accepts Jesus as Savior, walks across the street to get baptized but is killed by a car. Does he go to heaven or hell? If he goes to heaven, then baptism isn't a requirement is it? If he goes to hell, then faith in Christ isn't sufficient to save him is it? Let's not forget: it must also be administered with the formula "In Jesus’ name" rather than the formula "In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" which is mentioned in Matt. 28:19.

    Oneness churches also teach that speaking in tongues is a necessary manifestation of the Holy Spirit. Since a person cannot be saved without the Holy Spirit. Again, this is in addition to baptism. This begins to look suspicious as salvation by faith plus works (notice no mention of grace...). It means they would have to conclude those of us not so gifted are not saved!

    However, the number one leading error seems the most simple, baptism must be administered by a duly ordained minister on a church that maintains oneness theology: United Pentecostal, United Apostolic, etc. Now, if baptism in Jesus name only by immersion followed by speaking in tongues as proof your conversion is real must be done only by a UPC/Oneness ordained minister, and all others are, therefore, NOT SAVED, we have a serious problem, and Oneness is nothing short of a cult. Like most cults, they deny the Trinity. They add works to justification itself as a prerequiste, they set a legalistic standard for those qualifiications, and they specifically restrict justification to becoming a member of their particular churches, just like Mormons, just like Jehovah's Witnesses. Not only that, their stated aim is to gain "legitimacy" as mainstream Christians, when, in fact, they are not! This is the very purpose of Dr. Jakes' books and Phillips, Craig, and Dean's music.
     
  18. atestring

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    Of course the word "Trinity" is not in the Bible. That does not mean it's not true or biblical. It's just a term to describe what the Bible shows. And it's not 3 gods -- it's One God but 3 Persons (beings) in one Godhead. If Jesus and the HS are distinct from God the father, then that is the Trinity. If you think Jesus IS the Father and the Father IS the HS, and the HS IS Jesus, etc., then that is Oneness and it is not Baptist (nor Christian).

    Well, the Oneness doctrine, known as Sabellianism, was denounced in the 3rd century as heresy. Christians cannot have Christian fellowship with those who deny the biblical nature of God. Oneness is not Christian. They say that God appears in 3 modes -- the Father, the Son, and the HS. This means that everytime Jesus says "My Father" in the Bible (which is quite a few times), he is talking about himself. Do you believe that? It means Jesus is the "flesh of God [the Father]" (this is how some Oneness people term it).

    They do not have the right Jesus. They are not brothers and sisters in Christ anymore than the Mormons or JW's. And they do not consider you a Christian. I urge you to read up on this. Oneness beliefs:
    Also see
    http://www.carm.org/oneness.htm
    http://www.watchman.org/profile/onenesspro.htm
    http://www.christiandefense.org/oneness.htm
    http://www.believersweb.org/view.cfm?ID=673
    </font>[/QUOTE]Some people think that everyone but them is a cult.
    I am not oneness but i don't have to cllthem a cult.
    I am not calvinist but I don't call my Presbryterians a cult.
    I am an immersionist but i don't call Methodist a cult.

    I will not check out these websites because I have better things to do.

    BTW the thing about oneness allowing women to pastor ould be grounds for not giving to a Lottie Moon offering.
     
  19. Marcia

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    You're missing the whole point, Atestring. It is not about anyone calling anybody a cult. If you read what I wrote, I did not use that word. The point is what Oneness believes, and their Jesus is NOT the Jesus of the Bible, just as the Mormon Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible. That's the point.

    Of course not, because Presbyterians and Methodists historically have affirmed the Trinity and the same Jesus as the biblical Jesus. You are too wrapped up in the idea of the word "cult" and are ignoring the issue: namely, that the Oneness Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible.

    Fine, but it is sad you want to remain in ignorance. That someone is affirming a Jesus that is the wrong Jesus should bother you.
     
  20. Marcia

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    Since this seems to be an accusation, I am going to respond. It is false. You have made a false accusation against me, Atestring.

    I do not think that everyone but me is a cult. That is so ludicrous as to be pathetic.

    I do reject teachings that insult the Savior who delivered me from darkness. I do reject teachings that teach a different Jesus. I do reject teachings, just as Jesus told us to, that are false. Oneness teachings are false teachings, and that is the bottom line.
     

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