Don't these Verses Support Calvinist regeneration before faith?

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by Yeshua1, Feb 24, 2014.

  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1
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    1 John 5:1 - "everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God", John 1:13, Rom 9:16

    John 6:63,65 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life... Therefore have I told you that no man can come to me, unless it be given to him by my Father."


    As a sinner has to be enabled by the Holy spriit to be able to call upon jesus as Lord, in order to be saved?
     
  2. Revmitchell

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    No.....................................
     
  3. Winman

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    1 John 5:1 is Calvinism's desperation verse, they try to argue that it shows regeneration before faith, but it doesn't.

    It doesn't say, "everyone who is born of God believes". Now, if it said that, you would have a little bit of an argument. Of course, the dozen or so verses that all say you have to believe to have life would refute that interpretation.

    But it doesn't even say that, it says, "everyone who believes is born of God". It places believing before being born of God.

    Nice try though.

    And John 6:63-65? Not a chance.

    And the only "enablement" scripture shows is that a man must hear of Jesus to believe.

    Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

    Paul here asks HOW a man can believe unless he has heard of Jesus. This implies that the only impediment to believing on Jesus is ignorance. No man is born with the knowledge of Jesus Christ and the gospel and therefore cannot believe. But that is only impediment that Paul mentions here, or anywhere else in scripture.

    Paul never hints or suggests that a man must be regenerated to believe. Not once. ZILCH. It ain't there. You are outta luck. Sorry.

    Scripture does not support your view. But it is nice to see you are searching the scriptures. Now, if you had done that in the first place you would know that regeneration before faith is false doctrine.
     
  4. InTheLight

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    This verse supports regeneration after faith:

    John 20:31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.
     
  5. kyredneck

    kyredneck
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    What?!? Have you flipped to the other side?!? Do you now hold to immediate regeneration in lieu of gospel regeneration?
     
  6. JonC

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    These verses don’t necessarily support pre-faith regeneration. If to be saved I must repent and believe, does that mean that I repent and believe, and then sometime in the future I will be saved? Or is belief and repentance somehow tied closer to salvation (perhaps as a defining element)? I know that I am speaking of faith and salvation, but I think that perhaps salvation and regeneration are similar in terms of lineal occurrence (if it is even fair to view these elements in such a manner).
     
  7. Winman

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    Exactly, and there are probably at least a dozen verses that all show a person must believe before they have life, which is regeneration. The word regeneration literally means to be made alive AGAIN. Of course, you had to be alive once to be alive again, but that is another subject.

    Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
    18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    Verses 15 and 16 both show you must believe to have life. This life is regeneration. Verse 17 shows that this is being "saved". The moment you believe you are regenerated and saved, they are the same. You are saved from your sins, the wages of sin is death, so the moment you are forgiven your sins you are released from death and made alive.

    Verse 18 again shows that whoever believes is not condemned. This is what death truly is, it is a judgment, a condemnation for our sins. You must believe and have your sins forgiven before you can be released from the judgment and condemnation. The scriptures liken it to a prisoner being released from prison.

    Psa 102:20 To hear the groaning of the prisoner; to loose those that are appointed to death;

    Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

    Calvinism teaches the exact reverse of scripture.
     
    #7 Winman, Feb 24, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 24, 2014
  8. Yeshua1

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    no, rather that the lord first grants us a new heart and mind, and the means to place faith from that act into jesus to get saved, but BOTH happen pretty much same time, as salvation process all of the Lord!
     
  9. kyredneck

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    Regeneration Is Immediate
    http://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/regeneration-immediate/

    Excerpts:

    "..... we mean that the new birth is something that happens without means. God the Holy Spirit alone works upon the soul, He does not use any other agent to change the heart."

    "Though God does not make use of any means besides Himself to bring about regeneration, He does work through means in our sanctification, the process of growing in personal holiness. Scripture read and preached, the sacraments, prayer, and so on are all means that the Lord uses to mature us in Christ."


    Here's what some of the 'Old School' Southern Baptists had to say about it:

    Historic Baptists and Regeneration
    http://www.founders.org/journal/fj02/article2.html

    Excerpts:

    "In many Christian circles today experiencing "regeneration" (or "being born again") is simply something that happens when a person "makes a decision to accept Jesus Christ into his heart as personal Savior." Now it is certainly true that Jesus is the Savior, and that he saves sinners on a personal level. However, the idea that the experience of regeneration is a decision which every sinner ought to make and indeed every sinner can make is an idea which is seriously defective."

    "James P. Boyce (first president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, in Louisville, Kentucky): "It is not strange, therefore, that they [i.e. regeneration and conversion] are often confounded. Yet, after all, the Scriptures also teach that regeneration is the work of God, changing the heart of man by his sovereign will, while conversion is that act of man turning towards God with the new inclination thus given to his heart" (Abstract of Systematic Theology, p. 374)."

    "John A. Broadus (distinguished professor of New Testament and successor to Boyce at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary): "1. Q. What is meant by the word regeneration? A. Regeneration is God's causing a person to be born again. 9. Q. Does faith come before the new birth? A. No, it is the new heart that truly repents and believes" (taken from Broadus' A Catechism of Bible Teaching, reprinted in A Baptist Treasury, pp. 67-68)."

    "John L. Dagg (first writing Southern Baptist theologian; president of Mercer University in Georgia): "In our natural state we are totally depraved. No inclination to holiness exists in the carnal heart; and no holy act can be performed, or service to God rendered, until the heart is changed. This change, it is the office of the Holy Spirit to effect. . . . But, in his own time and manner, God, the Holy Spirit, makes the word effectual in producing a new affection in the soul: and, when the first movement of love to God exists, the first throb of spiritual life commences" (A Manual of Theology, pp. 277, 279)."

    "B. H. Carroll (founder and first president of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, Texas): "The true scriptural position [concerning regeneration] is this: There is, first of all, a direct influence of the Holy Spirit on the passive spirit of the sinner, quickening him or making him sensitive to the preaching of the Word. In this the sinner is passive. But he is not a subject of the new birth without contrition, repentance and faith. In exercising these he is active. Yet even his contrition is but a response to the Spirit's conviction, and the exercise of his repentance is but a response to the Spirit's conviction, and the exercise of his repentance and faith are but responses to the antecedent spiritual graces of repentance and faith." Carroll goes on to state that "repentance and faith are fruits of regeneration" (An Interpretation of the English Bible, Volume 4, p. 287)."

    From the PBs:

    Born Again: The Doctrine of Effectual Calling
    http://www.sovgrace.net/theological...-born-again-the-doctrine-of-effectual-calling
     
    #9 kyredneck, Feb 25, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 25, 2014

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