Doth God pervert judgment? or doth the Almighty pervert justice? (Job 8:3)

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by ForumChaplain, Sep 25, 2002.

  1. ForumChaplain

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    Rev 15:3-4
    3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
    4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

    Job 8:3
    3 Doth God pervert judgment? or doth the Almighty pervert justice? (KJV)

    Ps 89:14
    14 Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.

    Isa 9:7
    7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. (KJV)

    We serve a just and a holy God, show me where to rescue one that is deserving of hell from hell: yet to condemn another without any attempt to rescue that person is a just consequence.

    It is a mystery simply means that you do not understand.
    Show me a just God that does such a thing…
    If I am in hell because of my own actions, and you do the same things as I do.

    I am not interested in soverginty.
    I am not interested in power.
    I am interested only in understanding a just God that would do such a thing.
     
  2. rlvaughn

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    Every person who is sent to hell will be justly deserving that fate. Do you disagree? No person who dwells in prepared heavenly mansions will deserve to be there. Do you disagree? The first shows justice; the second mercy. Can God show mercy to any and still be just?
     
  3. Primitive Baptist

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    "And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy." [Ex. 33:19]

    "For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." [Rom. 9:15]

    "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth." [Rom. 9:18]

    Is it not evident from the Scriptures that God is sovereign to bestow His grace upon whomever He pleases? The Scriptures are clear that God has put a difference between His people and all other people upon the face of the earth.

    "...so shall we be separated, I and thy people, from all the people that are upon the face of the earth." [Ex. 33:16]

    "And there shall be a great cry throughout all the land of Egypt, such as there was none like it, nor shall be like it any more. But against any of the children of Israel shall not a dog move his tongue, against man or beast: that ye may know how that the LORD doth put a difference between the Egyptians and Israel." [Ex. 11:6, 7]

    You have made it known that you are not interested in sovereignty if God is not fair towards every man without exception. Consequently, you are not interested in the God of the Bible. The Bible declares that God looks upon His children and has respect unto them [Ex. 2:25]. You want a God created in the image of man, "But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth." [Job 23:13] Those on this board who hold to the Calvinistic view of eternal salvation have appealed to the Scriptures to affirm what they believe. All you post is rationalism. "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?" [Rom. 9:20] Your mind illustrates the natural reply towards a sovereign God, but "...Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid." [Rom. 9:14]

    You present the love of God as an empty love. The love of God is effectual and manifests itself to the objects of it. God does not love, and yet, fail to save.

    "But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us," [Eph. 2:4]

    The Ephesian church realized "...Salvation is of the LORD." [Jon. 2:9]

    "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus." [Eph. 2:1-7]

    God quickened us "Even when we were dead in trespasses and sins..." [v. 5] Paul illustrated the condition of the natural man apart from grace "dead in trespasses and sins." [v. 1] Those who are dead in trespasses and sins" walk according to the course of the world. It is truly amazing grace to see wicked men called from the walks of life into the blessed kingdom of the dear Son of God [Col. 1:13] according to His mercy [Titus 3:5]. There are none who seek God according to the Scriptures. God has to take the initiative. Have you ever heard the song that states, "When I could not come to where He was, He came to me?" Truly, that is the case of every child of God. If you would rather have humanism than this grace, you are welcome to it.
     
  4. ForumChaplain

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    Question 1&2; I agree:
    If he has the power to show mercy to all, yet chooses not to. The answer is "NO". Justice is what God say's it is... He has demonstrated to us what his justice is. That is not it...

    Perhaps you can present me with a scenario that illustrates otherwise....
     
  5. ForumChaplain

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    The Beatitudes tells us on whom god will have mercy. 2Thess 2:8/12 tells us whom he will harden. They will not match up with election.

    Not interested in sovereignty here. As God’s sovereignty also gives him the right to use freewill as an agent in salvation. Calvinism uses God’s sovereignty as tho election were the only option available to him. His sovereignty has nothing to do with his sense of justice. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT JUSTICE HERE.

    Perhaps you can illustrate for me a justice that is fair to some and not fair to others. And you are correct, I am not interested in any sovereignty that declares my God to be unjust. Perhaps it’s just the god that you find in the bible. For me, your God of the bible does not exist.

     
  6. weeping prophet

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    What shall we say then is there unrighteousness with God?Certainly not!For He says to Moses "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy,and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."Romans 9:14-15
    But indeed,O man,who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to Him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this."Romans 9:20
    Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom he wills He hardens.Romans9:18
     
  7. ForumChaplain

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    What shall we say then is there unrighteousness with God?Certainly not!For He says to Moses "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy,and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."Romans 9:14-15
    But indeed,O man,who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to Him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this."Romans 9:20
    Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom he wills He hardens.Romans9:18
    </font>[/QUOTE]Hello weeping prophet.
    Excellant scriptures, but what are you trying to use them to say to me. Perhaps I misunderstand because we are talking about justice. You are talking about soverginty. They are totally two different things.

    Suppose i were to say, God beat [edited for appropriateness] a man just because he has the sovereign right to do so. Would that act line up with what God has revealed to us about his sense of justice.

    Please, everyone; we are talking about justice here.

    I want to understand, but when i ask; how tall is Billy Bob, you guys tell me how short Sally Sue is.....

    [ September 26, 2002, 10:59 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
     
  8. Pastor Larry

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    Please use the quote function sparingly ... Do not cite more than necessary to let us know what you are referring to.

    Thanks
    Moderator
     
  9. russell55

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    The passage of scripture is not speaking about God's sovereignty, but about His righteousness.

    "What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."

    So God having mercy on whomever He wants, and hardening whomever He wants does not conflict with God's righteousness--and His justice flows out of His righteousness.

    No one gets less than they deserve, and all sin is dealt with--no sin is passed over without just grounds for passing over it-- and so God is just.
     
  10. rlvaughn

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    Chappie, you answered questions one & two positively. You did not directly address question three. If you agree that all deserve to be in hell and none deserve to be in heaven, then you must also agree that God can show mercy and still be just. But you assume that God must show mercy to all in order to be just. Yet God says, "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy...(Rom. 9:15)."
    I certainly agree that justice is whatever God says it is. Yet, in your initial post, you list four verses that say God is just, then jump to the conclusion that if He is just, then He must have mercy on all. You have failed to give actual proof of your contention.
    Perhaps, Luke 25-27 will help illustrate this to someone. Jesus says (v. 25,26) that there were MANY widows in the days of Elijah - but God only sent him to ONE. Was God unjust in this? Jesus says (v. 27) that there were MANY lepers in the days of Elisha - but only Naaman was healed. Was God unjust in this? Did He not have the power to save many widows? Did He not have the power to cleanse many lepers? Was God unjust when He chose Abram over all the other men who lived upon the earth? Was God unjust when He chose Jacob over Esau (while they were yet in the womb, neither having done good or evil)? Was He unjust when He chose Israel over all the other nations that were in the world?
     
  11. Primitive Baptist

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    God is righteous and perfectly just in electing some and suffering others to walk in their own ways. Do you not believe that?

    "Who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways." (Acts 14:16)

    Before Jesus Christ came to earth roughly 2,000 years ago, God dealt almost strictly with the Jews only. Was God unjust or "unfair?" God does not have to save anyone because all are undeserving of His grace. Perhaps you can find something in man to motivate God to be "fair," but I do not. After all, what would motivate him?

    "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes." [Rom. 3:10-18]

    I believe God is completely fair in election because those who were not chosen are given up to do what they desire to do in the first place. You really did not even deal with the issues I addressed in my post. You just appealed to more rationalism. Romans 9 was written for people with your like mindset.

    "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD." [Is. 55:8]

    Arminians want to worship a god they can search out and understand, but that is not the God of the Bible.

    After telling the children of Israel that they would be punished for their sins, God addresses Israel, "Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal?" [Ezek. 18:25]

    God is equal in all His dealings with mankind. Every man without exception sinned in Adam, therefore every man without exception deserves eternal separation from God, "Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal..." because He chooses to have mercy on a particular people. It is not unfair to bestow grace on a particular people in a world where none deserve it in the first place. You should really appeal more to the Scriptures for your beliefs rather than rationalism and what you think is "fair." Leave the "being fair" part to a just God.

    [ September 26, 2002, 03:56 PM: Message edited by: Primitive Baptist ]
     
  12. Primitive Baptist

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    After all, are you not glad that God did not deal with you on the basis of "fairness?"

    "If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand?" [Ps. 130:3]
     
  13. ForumChaplain

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  14. ForumChaplain

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    He did my friend, he did. If i end up in hell, God is just and fair. If i end up in heaven, God is just and fair: Yet I have to catagorically reject salvational election in order to arrive at that conclusion.
     
  15. ForumChaplain

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    "NO"
    Only those that feel that they are a part of the elect could even possibly believe in the fairness of such an act. Why should believe you, that it is fair. Why do not we ask some of those that are standing on the "Hot" side of your election if it is fair or not.

    Two kids standing side by side, you give one a candy bar. If you want to know if it is fair or not, ask the one that did not get the candy bar. The other one has been paid off....

    So, how is it fair that one ends up in hell, and the other in heaven...... You trace the reason that some went to hell to within that person. For the sake of equity and fairness, should you not be able to find something within those that went to heaven, worthy of heaven.

    Can you not see a double standard here....

    So why are the elect judged by a different standard that results in them being rewarded for their sin, (The end result is, that is exactly what happens) and everybody else is condemned and punished for the same sins??

    Does that not eliminate your thoughts as being represenative of what God has revealed, as well as mine. Are we both equally blind. The scripture appears to say so. But if you place it back into the context in which it was written, that is not so...

    And what are my calvinist brothers looking for, a God who blinds them. If you do not understand, and have no desire to understand, why do you attempt to teach others??

    Then justice demands that God either provide all with the means to escape, or condemn all to their deserved fate. Not my justice... His justice...

    You call election for some, and hell for others, "mercy", I call it a double standard. Even if I am the one receiving mercy, maybe i won't complain. But in my heart, i still know what a double standard is. I do not have to believe a lie to believe God...
    No Sir.. That is not true. I do not say that the way of the lord is not equal, double predestination does, election does.....
    Glad that you think so, because I have firsthand information that God skipped over you. ((((( Relax, take it easy, i said that for shock value. ))))) Would really like to know if your values change when you have to look at things from the other side of the fence...

    [/quote]
    You should really appeal more to the Scriptures for your beliefs rather than rationalism and what you think is "fair." Leave the "being fair" part to a just God.
    [/QUOTE]

    Any comments that i might make in response to what is intimated here would prove to be unfruitful and unchristian. Think i'll pass....

    [ September 26, 2002, 06:55 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]
     
  16. KenH

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    (Job 40:1-2 NKJV) Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said: {2} "Shall the one who contends with the Almighty correct Him? He who rebukes God, let him answer it."

    (Job 40:6-14 NKJV) Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said: {7} "Now prepare yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer Me: {8} "Would you indeed annul My judgment? Would you condemn Me that you may be justified? {9} Have you an arm like God? Or can you thunder with a voice like His? {10} Then adorn yourself with majesty and splendor, and array yourself with glory and beauty. {11} Disperse the rage of your wrath; Look on everyone who is proud, and humble him. {12} Look on everyone who is proud, and bring him low; Tread down the wicked in their place. {13} Hide them in the dust together, Bind their faces in hidden darkness. {14} Then I will also confess to you That your own right hand can save you.

    I am afraid, Chappie, based on the above verses that you are dangerously close to going over the edge and falling into sacrilege.

    Christian regards,

    Ken
    A Spurgeonite

    [ September 26, 2002, 07:09 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
     
  17. ForumChaplain

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    For how many did God's grace for one end up in eternal condemnation for allthe rest. We are not talking about temporal graces and mercies. This election that you speak of results in "Eternal Condemnation" for all others.

    If we suffer with him, we shall also rein with him. Perhaps those that he did not heal or bestow honour on, will have a greater reward in heaven...

    In election, those that he does not honour, "GO TO HELL" Can you see a difference here....

    Is the rich man more blessed than the poor man? Is the man that can walk more blessed than the man that cannot? Is the King more Blessed than his subjects. Can God bless a poor man, can God bless a man that cannot walk, can God bless a man that is not king. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT HEAVEN AND HELL HERE. NOTHING TEMPORAL. THESE CONSEQUENCES ARE ETERNAL....[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]
     
  18. ForumChaplain

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    (Job 40:1-2 NKJV) Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said: {2} "Shall the one who contends with the Almighty correct Him? He who rebukes God, let him answer it."

    (Job 40:6-14 NKJV) Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said: {7} "Now prepare yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer Me: {8} "Would you indeed annul My judgment? Would you condemn Me that you may be justified? {9} Have you an arm like God? Or can you thunder with a voice like His? {10} Then adorn yourself with majesty and splendor, and array yourself with glory and beauty. {11} Disperse the rage of your wrath; Look on everyone who is proud, and humble him. {12} Look on everyone who is proud, and bring him low; Tread down the wicked in their place. {13} Hide them in the dust together, Bind their faces in hidden darkness. {14} Then I will also confess to you That your own right hand can save you.

    I am afraid, Chappie, based on the above verses that you are dangerously close to going over the edge and falling into sacrilege.

    Christian regards,

    Ken
    A Spurgeonite
    </font>[/QUOTE]Ken:
    Your post are often provocative, so i will say this with the best of intentions and with the greatest reguards for you as a person..

    I am not overly concerned with what you think of what edge I am about to go over.

    I am not contending with God. Are you not Ken, a spurgeonite. I will not contend with God, But you, now that's a different story. Your words are not God's words. As far as me and sacralige goes, clean up uour own act, then you can take a look at mine.

    Those passages that you so righteously quote to me were written just as much to you as they were to me. You are not above them. Your efforts to frighten me only stiffen my resolve to stick with what God has revealed to me.

    Said in Christian Love::
    I do not think that it is at present for you and i to have efficacious dialog right now, it is not my desire to provoke you. Perhaps a temporary hiatous would be in order.... Let's just pray for each other for a while.....
     
  19. BobRyan

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    Arminians believe God is Both "Just and the Justifier of them that diligently seek Him".

    But many choose instead to accuse God of either "Unjust Mercy" or "Unmerciful Justice".

    Romans 9 shows God mixing mercy with justice EVEN for those that He knows to be finally lost.

    The narrow concept that God can not be just if He is merciful - or at least He can not be just to the ONE He shows mercy to - is a fallacy of the same form that charges that God can not be JUST AND merciful to the same person.

    But in the cross - justice and mercy are united in perfect harmony. God so loved The World - "not just the FEW of Matt 7". Those who choose hell are rejecting the drawing of God that "Draws all men unto him".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. rlvaughn

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    We are talking about a principle. You have denied that God can be just if He shows mercy to one and not another. If this is not an unjust principle in the temporal realm, why is it an unjust one in the spiritual? Also, it is not the election of some to salvation that results in eternal condemnation for all others. It is their sin that results in their condemnation.
    Here you are grasping for straws. You know nothing of the spiritual condition of those who suffered physically in the cases mentioned (widows in Elijah's day & lepers in Elisha's day), and yet you try to insert some possibilities to soften the blow to your case. It doesn't matter anyway. In these and many other cases, we see a principle of God choosing to show mercy to one and not bestowing that same mercy on another.
    We are speaking of both. Either God can show mercy to whom He will or He cannot. You have judged that God cannot be just in showing mercy to some if not showing it to all. We see in principle that He can, whether spiritual or temporal. The burden is given back to you to make your case - where does the Bible say God cannot be just and show mercy on whomever He will?
     

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