Doubt Salvation

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Brother Bob, Sep 10, 2007.

  1. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob
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    Do you ever doubt your Salvation. I am not talking of "doubting" God, but do you ever doubt yourself, that you are what you believe you are. The inward man is what has been born again and the outward is crucified and kept under subjection, but has to wait until the resurrection to receive its change. So, what knowledge we have, has to be the part of us that has already been changed from a dead state of sin, and made alive in Jesus Christ, raised to walk a newness of life.

    The Apostles doubted:

    Mat 26:21 And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me
    Mat 26:22 And they were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I?
    They all doubted themselves, are we any better?

    Romans 8:
    24: For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
    25: But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.


    So Paul says we are saved by Hope, so what is Hope.

    Hbr 11:1 ¶ Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

    We find in Hbr 11:1 that Hope is "faith" and if you do not have "Hope", then you do not have faith.
    Also, if you have "complete knowledge" without any doubt ever, then faith would be made void and if faith is made void, then so is Hope. In order for there to be faith, there must be some doubt in the outward or fleshly man who has not received the change yet, for if a man seeth (or knoweth) "my empahsis", why doth he yet hope for.

    If you have no doubt ever, then I can’t see how you could have faith and without faith you cannot please God.

    Even Paul said:

    2Cr 13:5
    Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

    Now to the knowing scripture.

    Rom 8:16
    The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
    (but if you look closely, it is the spirit to our spirit, which is inwardly. Not the flesh.

    1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

    Even in 1 John, it is talking to the part of man that has already been changed, not the flesh. IMO

    There are many scripture that can be read to be both ways, until we examine them closely.

    I will leave these and the rest of the scripture up to your comments.
     
    #1 Brother Bob, Sep 10, 2007
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  2. TCGreek

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    1. I suppose that it is possible to doubt one's salvation.

    2. But there must come a time in one's spiritual maturity, when he or she must confirm God's choice of him or her (2 Pet. 1:10, 11).

    3. But the Christian despair at his or her own peril when the truths of such passages like Rom 8:30; Phil 1:6 and Jd 1, 24.
     
  3. Brother Bob

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    If its absolute knowledge, then how could the Just live by faith, but by knowledge.
     
  4. Amy.G

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    It can't be absolute knowledge because we don't have all the knowledge yet. For now we see dimly as in a mirror.

    What we can have and should mature into is absolute faith. But our faith is not without knowledge. That would be blind faith. We base our faith on what God has revealed to us about Himself through His word, the testimony of the gospel writers and the indwelling Holy Spirit.

    Having faith that we are absolutely and eternally saved is not based on knowledge, but trust in the God that we have knowledge of.

    Does that make sense?
     
  5. Allan

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    Faith is the action based upon truth (or God's promises). For better clarification look back at Heb 11 and see all those who 'lived by faith' because they acted 'in faith' regarding God's promises.

    I have never doubted my salvation - as in the work of Christ which saved me.
    I might have wondered at why I might not do as I should, thereby wonder would the saved do such?

    But that does not question the work of Christ which brings salvation to me, but sanctification of life on apart of him.

    The difference is when I question my salvation, I am questioning the work of Christ in whom I have believed.

    When I question my life in relation to what the saved aught to be doing, then it is not my salvation I'm questioning (for when I look at that part it should be unequivical that it is Christ work and not mine thus I am assured), but the sanctification which Christ is now working out in me.
     
  6. Brother Bob

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    It is one thing to not doubt what the Lord did for mankind. It is quite another to doubt yourself, do you believe with everything in you now and at all times in your life, or have we got down in the valley and begin to wonder if we really are what we say we are? I mean, scripture teaches me that the "blind will lead the blind". Scripture also teaches that many will say we have prophsied in thy name.

    I understand what you are saying and scripture also says, "never doubting", but are we that perfect yet? Scripture says to be perfect as our Father in Heaven, but are we?
    Why did the Apostles say "Lord is it I"?

    I guess the biggest question is with "complete knowledge and never doubting", where is faith, if you already know everything beyond any doubt whatsoever. If "faith" is the substance of things hoped for, then hope is made up of our faith. We have faith, that Jesus will deliver us from the grave, but it has not happened yet, so we live by faith that it will happen. If we live by "complete knowledge" that it will happen, then how can faith exist?

    I must admit, in my years I have from time to time said to the Lord. "Lord, If I am lacking in anything, please show me what it is" Are you saying this has never happened to you?

    They had enough "faith" to believe God will fullfill His promise and so do I, but if you put "complete knowledge" in the place of "faith", it would say "those who lived by complete knowledge of God's promise, leaving no place for faith. I hope you see what I am saying. Complete knowledge to me is the same as "seeing it take place".
     
    #6 Brother Bob, Sep 10, 2007
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  7. Allan

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    Brother Bob, let me put it this way - if I may.

    Faith is the substance of things 'hoped' for.
    I have said before that 'hoped' basically means a joyful expectation.

    Now the quality or value of our 'hope' is based in object to which it is applied.
    Example. I hope my wife comes home tonight from the grocery store.

    It is not a fact that she 'will' come home because many things can happen between there and home; accidents, kidnappings, heart attacks, broke bones, ext...

    So the quality or value of my 'hope' is based it the ability of the person to whom I believe will do what they say. Correct?

    Does Christ lie?
    Has He ever failed?
    Can He be twarted in doing what He determines?

    The answer is a resounding, NO.

    Is He God? YOU BET!! (thanks Web)

    Therefore, our 'hope' is based in quality and value of the promises of Christ who said - whosoever believes in me shall not perish but have everlasting life, and the many other verse which declare the promises of God to those who believe.

    Thus
    Do you see the pattern?

    'Hope' is only as good as the object in which you are trusting. Ie. Man is 'ify' so our hope regarding man is never a constant. But GOD and or Christ who is God IS constant and never lies nor will fail - so in Christ we don't have a maybe but a guarantee or as scripture puts it a 'joyful EXPECTATION or Expectancy' of that which MUST come to pass based on the promises of God through Christ Jesus.
     
    #7 Allan, Sep 10, 2007
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  8. Helen

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    Of course there were times of doubt. That is in the past tense, however, when I see what the Lord has done with me. There is NO doubt in my mind about who is responsible for the improvements! They are nothing I could have done on my own. Add that to answered prayer at some very strange moments and I would have to ignore the actual evidence in my life to insist on doubting at this point.
     
  9. webdog

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    Umm....Allan...you may want to go back and edit this... :laugh:
     
  10. Brother Bob

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    Allen;
    Is this not what I am talking about having doubt in yourself from time to time, I do not question what the Lord has done, and never have. I have questioned myself, as you said to your self,
    "would a saved person do that?"

    Do you see what I am saying, that is why it is "by faith".
     
  11. Allan

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    No, I have never doubted that which Christ has done for me because I do not base that upon my self but Him and His promises. If I stand under conviction of what I have done and scripture states THAT is just one of the confirming promises of being one of Gods children.

    ABout the OT Saints and their faith. Scripture does not state they had 'enough' faith but that they simply had faith. Remember Jesus statement "faith the size of a grain of mustard seed can move mountains". This is about how much faith one must have but illistrating that one must only HAVE faith. Think also of the man who stated to Jesus concerning the raising of his daughter. "Lord I believe, but help thou mu unbelief" and what happened next? You guessed it. It wasn't because of the AMOUNT of faith he had but in WHOM he placed his faith.
     
  12. Brother Bob

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    Helen; those past doubts were while you were a Christian, right?
    I know you have had a tough time over the years with some of your children, I am sure they have been times you have question, am I really what I say I am, Lord help me!

    Maybe not,

    BBob,
     
  13. Allan

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    OH DAG!! RUNNING HASTILY BACKKKKkk!!!!!
     
  14. Brother Bob

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    Allen;
    Why the need to confirm it to you???
     
  15. Helen

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    I'm smiling. Yes, in the early years of my Christian walk there were times when I wondered, "Is this whole thing a cosmic joke?" But our Lord was wonderful to me in that He always provided me with very gentle and understanding older sisters in Christ wherever we lived. Their maturity and calm faith helped anchor me until I had matured in Christ a little more and had something to look back on.

    About the children, my tough times were partly from their father having walked out on all of us and leaving me to have to take responsibility for every decision and every action, partly from needing to be constantly aware of Chris, my retarded son, which meant some of that attention did not get paid to the others, partly from the fact that several of them are older adoptions and their behavior patterns were already set, and partly because of my own failures and theirs as well. I am grateful those times are over now. What I did do right was to make sure they all knew the Bible start to finish -- at least they knew what they were rebelling against!

    But it's funny now that I think of it in relation to your comments and question -- those tough times were the very times I grew the closest to the Lord in a very short amount of time. Maybe I just didn't have the time to doubt during those years, I don't know...but the doubting time was before then, when I had the time and immaturity in the Lord to allow those doubts to fester in my mind a bit.

    Still, I would say this to others who are only a few years in the Lord -- don't be afraid of the doubts. Go ahead and face them head on and work your way through them. God will win if you really want the truth, and then you will have something with which to help others who have those same doubts later on in your life.
     
  16. Allan

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    Yes, I see what you are saying, but that is also why I keep bringing it back around to the object of our Faith. Our salvation isn't based upon 'what' we do but in 'whom' we have believed.

    Of course it is 'by faith', but by the faith of what and in what?
    Faith has an object, and it is in that object we place our faith.
    Thus faith is an action, and place the whole of one dependancy upon the suffientcy of Christ makes one saved regardless what might transpire to cause us to take a second look. But it is at that second look we can in confidence say, I am a child of God because I have the very Word of God in concerning me.
     
  17. Allan

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    It is better said 'affirming' rather than confirming.
    Do you question your salvation every time you are contrary to Gods word?
    I do not either.

    God AFFIRMS my sonship BY chastening and scorging those whom He loves.
    He CONFIRMS it to the World and other believers through that chastening and scourging.


    Like my child, who disobeys.
    Does he question if he is my child?
    No.
    He might wonder at times later in life why he does things contrary to our family values, but that does not mean he questions his relationship to me.
    But when I discipline him, it affirms to him that he is mine - while confirming to the world and family he is mine as well.
     
  18. Brother Bob

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    I am glad for all of you, but must be truthful. In my Christian life, there are times I begin to wonder about myself. Not any of the things you mention Allen. I know the Lord died and arose for the sins of all mankind who would believe. That belief is from the heart and is exactly what I am talking about, not doubting the Lord or the object of your belief, but do I really have the true belief. The devil believed.

    Also, the reason we have "faith", is because we have not seen and to change that faith to complete knowledge, I think you would have to see God face to face.
    I honestly believe that I have as much knowledge of Salvation as is humanly possible to have, therefore I live by faith.

    I know how important the object of your faith is and do not question the object. I just question my part, ever once in a while.

    If I have faith in Jesus, as you say, there must be the object of my faith which is Jesus, which I do not question. For there to be faith, there has to be someone who has faith also in that object.

    For that faith to be without doubt, both the person and the object, must be genuine.
     
    #18 Brother Bob, Sep 10, 2007
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  19. Amy.G

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    Talking about faith as a mustard seed reminded me of something my husband said a couple of weeks ago when we were talking about faith.

    Jesus said if we would have faith the size of a mustard seed that we could command a mountain to move and it would. But, we don't even have faith the size of a mustard seed!

    I never thought of that, but I think he's right. Our faith is sooo small. Jesus said, "oh ye of little faith". Yet, even with the tiny faith that we do have, He is able to use even that.

    Oh if we could only have faith the size of that little seed!
     
  20. Allan

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    If we go back and look at the verse Amy, Jesus isn't getting on to them for having a dust like (speck if you will) and not anything potentionally substantial like a seed. But that they had NO belielf.
    However, neither Jesus nor his disciples ever removed a mountain. So is Jesus referencing a literal mountain or is it an illistration of a 'seemingly' immovable obstacle - like the demon possesion they were dealing with.

    It is not about the size of faith but the fact we have 'faith' in that situation at all.
    Faith is about that which you believe is true and acting in accordance with it.

    Here is another:
     
    #20 Allan, Sep 10, 2007
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