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Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Raulf7, Aug 12, 2001.
Why would someone want to judge others?
Raulf, for your own sanity, I'm on my knees, trying to reach the keyboard, begging you to NOT try to fully understand the mind of a certain Dr. Bob Griffen. When you read his posts, just take deep breaths, in the nose, out the mouth, etc..
Seriously, it's because he enjoys judging others.
Just wait for his response to this post.
Come on, Raulf, you have to take Dr. Bob with a grain of salt.
And a grain of wheat. And a grain of bran.
Sometimes, it is better to take him with two aspirin so you won't have a headache.
But, Bob is cool. Usually.
I am new here thats why I asked
Rowlf - I was saved at 9 and grew up in a very legalistic independent fundamental baptist church. One of the first things one tries to do is to "find themselves" and a sort of identity.
Many of us (me for certain) became Pharisees and learned to judge others and get pleasure from it. The act of judging gives a subjective means of affirming myself.
No matter what I am or what I've done, there are always others who, in my judging, are "worse" than I am.
I can also "tear down" those who seem better or more worthy than me, by finding (or manufacturing) some flaw - they don't meet my mind's high standards.
That's why when I hear of a spiritual leader who has fallen (Swaggart with morals, Bakker with money, Stanley with divorce, Hyles with about everything) we are secretly glad. It makes me look better. And that's what I want everyone to think!
This is STEP ONE in a 12-step program designed by John Fischer for recovering pharisees (like me). I admit it and am allowing God to work on me. Putting it in my "bio" is a step of recognition that I have a problem.
Now, if you've got a problem with that, it shows what a lousy, unspiritual, neo . . .
I eliminated my evil judgementalism after being a Christian for 17 years by listening to Dr Robert Thieme on the 2nd Chapter of Romans.
Cant tell you how much peace that bought me
I am talking about others sins, not doctrine here
[ August 14, 2001: Message edited by: Raulf7 ]
Don't have to be "judgmental" to be "discerning". And a discerning Christian tries the spirit and writings to see if they match the REVEALED WORD.
Seldom do I find a match in Thieme and true fundamental Bible teaching. Sorry. While he has a loyal cult-like following (yes, I've listened to many tapes and gotten lots of literature from Beracah Church) I have lots of areas of disagreement from a purely theological perspective.
In seminary 30 years ago he was voted "most likely to form his own cult". David Koresh beat him to it.
Raulf - Why don't you go to the non-baptist (for His followers are most certainly non-baptist) forum where EVERYONE can join and start a thread on this man. There may be many who do not know his teaching. YOU could take pro; I'l let someone else take con and can discuss doctrinal views.
It would be enlightening for all. God bless.
Dr. Bob, I agree with most everything you say. You seem to be very wise in the way of the Bible. I dont think there is anything wrong with judging others as long as it is done in a right way. I think it is always wrong to judge someones salvation, that is for God and God alone. But the Bible says you will know my children by their fruits. I believe we are to be fruit inspectors. Dr. Bob, You keep on keeping on.
Dr. Bob Griffin
1. I am basically Baptist. Was in a Baptist Church for a long time (non USA Baptist). The Church I am now in is Congregational, but is basically Baptist in Theology.
2. Thieme teaches Faith Alone in Christ Alone and is a Trinitarian. I am happy with that. These are not cult doctrines. His Soteriology and Christology is fine with me and these are the important issues.
3. Thieme is not my only source of information. I just happen to like much of his teachings. I get his tapes shipped from the USA to New Zealand, FREE of charge
Could you share with me where is Theology is a cult?
Keeping with the (somewhat) original train of this thread....
I would like to ask, why do we focus on Jesus saying "judge not" and completely ignore Jesus saying "judge righteous judgement"?
I think it mainly has to do with ignorance of the scripture. Now don't get me wrong, I don't mean this in a demeaning way. For many years, the general public, both Christian and non-christian alike, have touted this "command" improperly. Unfortunately, when they do state it, there is no one there to correct them in the error and explain to them what the verse means.
So, I think it appropriate to make others aware of the proper meaning of the verse about judging others. However, I believe it important to do it in a loving manner not in a condescending way.
More people are interested in the judging (pro) verses than the verses forbidding judging
Here is where I will show my ignorance. Could you please list those verses that are against judging?
Here is a partial listing: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>(Mat 7:1 KJV) Judge not, that ye be not judged.
(Luke 6:37 KJV) Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
(Luke 12:57 KJV) Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?
(John 7:24 KJV) Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
(Rom 2:27 KJV) And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
(Rom 14:3 KJV) Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
(Rom 14:13 KJV) Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
(1 Cor 4:3 KJV) But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
(1 Cor 5:12 KJV) For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
(1 Cor 11:31 KJV) For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
(James 4:11 KJV) Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Are you saying in these passages, that Jesus is giving a call to an acceptance of any lifestyle or teaching. Although the Christian is called to unconditionally love, he is not called to unconditional approval. We really can love people who do things we do not approve of. Most of our judgment in regard to others is wrong, not because we are judging according to a standard, but because we are being hypocritical in the application of that standard. We ignore it in our own lives. Jesus spoke against being judgmental, that is, judging motives and the inner man, which only God can know. We can judge the fruit of a man, but we can rarely judge their motives with accuracy.
We should and must tread lightly in this area. We cannot arbitrarily choose people and make a judgment about their character. However, when the actions of a person are contrary to the Word of God, we can show them the error of their ways. Some will call this being judgmental. What do you call it?
We cant judge others sins. We have no right to when we also have a sin nature.
Thats between them and God. Now if their sin directly affects your life thats a different matter.
But, if its someone who isnt affecting your life then you have no right to run around pointing out their sins and judging them.
You have a sin nature too.
Would it be appropriate for a dirty house to call another dirty house, dirty? Maybe its not the same kind of dirt but its still dirty
I am not saying anything. You asked for some verses. Discuss them.
What was Jesus forbidding when He said "Judge Not" in one place and "Judge Righteously" in others?
Verb transitive and intransitive in dictionary:
~1. Judge = pass judgment, condemn on basis of evidence
~2. Judge = determine a winner; settle a dispute
~3. Judge = decree
~4. Judge = form and idea or opinion
~5. Judge = criticize, censure
~6. Judge = think or suppose
What Dr. Bob (and pharisees in all ages) did was #1,5 - condemning, criticizing and censure. I'm glad he is giving that up!!
Jesus expects us to do #2,3,4,6 based on "righteousness" and His Word.
This is ridiculous. Give it up already Raulf.
I'm new to this board but to me one of the scriptures that has been overlooked is:
I Corinthians 6:4 If then ye have judgements of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
The reason there has been so much fighting and divisions between churches in the past, is because this scripture was ignored.
I was a witness to this as a boy and 22 churches split on a matter (not a doctrinal breach) but on a misapplication of practice.
Eleven churches went one way, eleven churches went the other way, both preaching the same doctrine.
This division lasted 40 years. I lost a lot of friends because they were on the other side and we could not fellowship with them.
Just like Israel we wandered in the wilderness for 40 years. After 40 years the churches came together.
Year after year, each group wanted the other to apologize for the wrong done. After the majority passed this life, the churches went back together. Now we are 22 strong once again. All the time we were apart Jesus Wept!
Finally those least esteemed in the church judged, and both sides were wrong. It cost us dearly as you can see and NNE WAS RIGHT... Brother Glen
Oh how Christians love to judge, condemn, gossip and malign other people while they themselves commit all sorts of other sins.
Who was Jesus talking to?
What were these people ordained to do for the Jews at the time?
Where is it written that you may go around and judge and comdemn every sinner you come across?
You want to see a sinner? Look in the mirror.
Eyes, speck and beam.
"He who is without sin, cast the first stone"
You without sin yet?