Dr. Luke—the Proto-Reformed Theologian

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by The Archangel, Jun 4, 2007.

  1. The Archangel

    The Archangel
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    The Calvinist/Arminian battle rages; I’m sure it always will. However, as a Calvinist, I am interested to see what anyone, but especially the non-Calvinists, say about these verses.

    I hope you will forgive the anachronism, but it seems Luke was “Calvinistic” in his understanding of conversion:

    Acts 13:48: 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

    Luke says those appointed to eternal life believed. He doesn’t seem to think it was simply a free choice.

    Here is another passage:

    Acts 16:11-15: 11 So, setting sail from Troas, we made a direct voyage to Samothrace, and the following day to Neapolis, 12 and from there to Philippi, which is a leading city of thedistrict of Macedonia and a Roman colony. We remained in this city some days. 13 And on the Sabbath day we went outside the gate to the riverside, where we supposed there was a place of prayer, and we sat down and spoke to the women who had come together. 14 One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul. 15 And after she was baptized, and her household as well, she urged us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay.” And she prevailed upon us.

    There it is in verse 14: The Lord opened her heart . Why? To pay attention to what was said by Paul.

    The interesting thing about this passage is that Luke tells us Lydia was already a worshiper of God, probably meaning she was a convert to Judaism. Lydia, then, was not an ethnic Jew, yet God had to open her heart so that she’d listen to Paul and, as a result, be converted.

    In these two passages, it would seem Luke thought God to be the main “actor” in conversion.

    What say you? Remember: We all claim to be Christian and, therefore, MUST treat each other accordingly, even if we don’t agree.

    Blessings,

    The Archangel
     
  2. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31
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    Jesus

    If we follow scripture we know it is those who do not lean on thier own understand, but trust in the Lord that Jesus leads them.

    It is the work of God that we believe, it is Jesus who opens our eyes.

    We just trust in Jesus not our own understanding.

    Matthew 11:25
    At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.
     
  3. pinoybaptist

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    Unfortunate that such reminders have to be part of a post in a supposedly Christian board, eh ?

    But back to the OP.

    I am sure somebody somewhere in this board will find some reason to say that these texts don't really mean what they are saying, and that you are reading something into these Scriptures that is more than is written.

    Watch.
     
  4. Jarthur001

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    A bit of a joke at times on this board.

    Good support verse archangel. Now get ready for a fancy dance by some. :)
     
  5. J.D.

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    "Lessons" in the Koine Greek language ahead, no doubt.
     
  6. Scarlett O.

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    OK, I'll bite.

    (You all do realize that this conversation you are having with each other reminds one of birds of prey circling in the air waiting for the water buffalo to die. :laugh: :laugh: )

    I am not a water buffalo, but pounce away if you must. :laugh:



    "Believed". You either believe like these Gentiles in verse 48 or you don't believe like those Jews in verses 45 and 46. The word believe, in my opinion, all by itself negates any attempt to make this anything other than Almighty and Sovereign God extending His Hand of Salvation and their taking it.

    "Appointed to eternal life" to means that this was their appointed day to be wooed by the Holy Spirit. It was their time and they acted on it.

    They believed. They believed.













     
  7. AresMan

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    Ok.

    Where does the Bible ever indicate that the Holy Spirit "woos" anyone?

    Of course!

    Yet, the fact that someone believes does not explain why he believes: only that he believes.

    Q. Why did these people believe?
    A. Because they were appointed unto eternal life.

    Simple ;)
     
  8. npetreley

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    It doesn't say anything about wooing. It doesn't say anything about Holy Spirit. You have to make all that suff up in order to avoid what it says. AND it doesn't say they believed and were appointed to eternal life as a result.

    It says THOSE WHO WERE APPOINTED TO ETERNAL LIFE (As opposed to whom? As opposed to those who weren't appointed to eteranl life) ... believed.
     
  9. convicted1

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    Dr Luke

    I know that all the Calvinists say that the people who are saved, we going to be saved because that God chose them from the foundation of the world....or am I wrong about this? Arminians(sp?) say that you are saved because you "chose" to be saved. I am kinda in the middle of both of these theologies. I do believe that you have to "choose" after God calls that individuals. When God saved my unworthy soul, I had to respond to His calling....I wouldn't have went to church on my own...that is while in the flesh. I do believe I have freewill to reject it. One time I was going to church, praying to Him while crying my eyes out, and then all of a sudden, I stopped going. I was a lot worse of a person for a long time after this. The scriptures talking about the spirit being cast out of a man, looking for rest and finding none, came to mind. He would work with me, but I turned a deaf ear to Him. But praise be to Him, He never gave up on me! I heeded to His calls one day, and by His GRACE, He saved me!! In other words, I see both sides of the C/A argument. But in the end, the main thing is that we are SAVED by the GRACE of God. Whether He "chooses" us or we "chose" Him isn't as important as being SAVED!! I don't believe in the Millenial Kingdom, but I am saved, and if it does exist, I will be there. I just don't see the MK theology, though! But wherever Jesus is at, is good enough for me. Take care and may God bless!!
     
  10. Jarthur001

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    Those that were appointed...humm

    Do you think this means all of them? :)
     
  11. Jarthur001

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    Hello convicted1 and welcome to BB.

    Anyone from Crum has to be a good person. :) I live in St Albans..which is outside of Charleston.

    Anyway...being that it seems it does not matter to you, therefore you could go one way or the other...would it not be better to believe as the Bible says? In other words...

    John 15:16
    Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
     
  12. Scarlett O.

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    Jesus was talking to the disciples.....specifically.
     
  13. Scarlett O.

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    Brother, I am telling you the truth. I do not "make all that stuff up" when it comes to the bible.

    Jesus Christ, Himself, said that the Holy Spirit was the One who would initially get our attention.

    John 16:7-8 "Nevertheless, I will tell you the truth: It is expedient for you that I go away; for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you;. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin and of righteousness, and of judgment."

    What I called wooing, others may call conviction. Same principle.

    The OP asked for our opinions. I won't give anymore that what he asked for. Just let me leave by saying that I don't claim to be a bible scholar, but the bible does NOT say that God created some people strictly to go to hell with no opportunity of salvation. And those of us who are going to heaven aren't going there kicking and screaming against our will.
     
  14. Humblesmith

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    The simple answer to these , of course, is that the Calvinist position is correct. But the typical Calvinist position usually does not take into account that God can ordain something to happen through human decision.............yes, He's big enough to even do that. This concept is similar to Acts 2:23 where Peter is speaking to the people of Jerusalem, says that God ordained that Jesus die on the cross, but they did it. So in Acts 13:48, God can appoint some to eternal life, yet the individual still have responsibility to believe or reject. (Those appointed will believe, of course.) God is so sovereign that he can work through human free will, which is demonstrated by the word "believe" and also a few verses later in the passage, Acts 14:1, where people believed because of the preaching of the Apostles. In my opinion, this seems to be the most balanced explanation that doesn't limit God somehow and also fits the passage and the rest of scripture.

    However, J. O. Buswell in his Systematic Theology has another explantion involving the definition of the word tatagmenoi. I don't have time to cross check him on this, but didn't see his point explained in my favorite lexicon.

    As for the Acts 16 passage, this could very well mean salvation, but also could mean a slightly different aspect. After all, it does say God opened her heart to "pay attention" to what was said by Paul. And as she was already a worshipper, one could make the case that she was already a believer. So its hard to say definitively either way.

    As for the passage on Lydia, I find her case interesting. Here she was, shut out of the synogogue, having very little light, yet gathering with others to worship God on the sabbath. Oh that we, with the more light that we have, would be so faithful.
     
  15. npetreley

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    Mine says that.

    Where does your Bible say that God is obliged to give everyone an opportunity for salvation? It doesn't. That's a vain imagination of man based on what man thinks is "fair".
     
  16. skypair

    skypair
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    Archangel,

    Not that you will believe it but I hope you will think about it :praying:

    "Appointed" here has the better Greek meaning of "disposed" or "determined," (cf. Acts 15:2 "...they determined that Paul and Barnabas,...") Those who were so "disposed," "determined," of chose eternal life believed.

    This is VERY simple -- God IS the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit that opens anyone's heart. The problem comes with those who "close" their hearts back up again!

    skypair
     
  17. skypair

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    Patent MISUSE of scripture, Jarthur! Shame on you! Jesus said this about His DISCIPLES, not about us. Find your proofs somewhere else if you have any.

    skypair
     
  18. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    Acts 15:2 is a different tense and therefore has a different meaning. I showed this to you a couple of weeks ago when you tried this. I noticed you dropped that topic in a hurry. I can only figure it is because you know you can't win it. Your only hope is that some people don't actually think to study.
     
  19. convicted1

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    RE: Dr. Luke

    As far as the "chose", or "chosen you" goes, I tend to think that those meant He "Chose" certain men to preach His word. If everyone was a preacher, where would the congregation be? When Christ came to set up the "New and Living way", I believe He left NO ONE out! But ALL can't be preachers. I think that people can turn Him away and die lost. John 3:16 mentions "whosoever will belive in Him". I don't think that leaves anyone out. But all can't be preachers. But I could be wrong...

    Willis Fletcher, Jr.
     
  20. pinoybaptist

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    Eternal salvation belongs to the Lord. He is the One who dispenses it to whom He will. It is not like He has a program where everyone has an opportunity to win a prize.

    He did not send His Son from His presence into this filthy world knowing full well what will happen, and Jesus did not leave His Father's presence knowing full well what will befall Him, for some faceless, nameless sinner who might perchance grab at the straw of salvation.

    He went up on that cross knowing the names of His people, who they are, where they are, and when they will be born, or if they were already born, or in paradise already.

    He came for a purpose. He came for His people, and them only.
     

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