Dr. R. Albert Mohler & Salvation of the child

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Scott_Bushey, Nov 7, 2002.

  1. Scott_Bushey

    Scott_Bushey
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    Recently it was posed to me to read an article written by Dr. Mohler and a colleague by the name of Daniel L. Akin. The article is entitled:
    "The Salvation of the Little Ones": Do Infants Who Die Go To Heaven. The article can be read in it's entirety @
    http://www.sbts.edu/mohler/FidelitasRead.php?article=fide1036

    In the article I found an intersting statement by Dr.'s Mohler/Akin which read:

    What then is our basis for claiming that all those who die in infancy are among the elect? First, the bible teaches that we are to be judged on the basis of our deeds committed "in the body". That is, we will face the judgement seat of Christ and be judged, not on the basis of original sin, but for our sins committed during our own lifetimes. Each will answer " according to what he has done" and not for the sin of Adam.

    Responses?
     
  2. rkbo

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    The Christian is not judged for his deeds in the sense of gaining eternal life. Salvation is a free gift. We are judged in the sense of gaining rewards in heaven. The Child can not be judged anymore than a severly retarded person can be. If we are unable to respond to the light by way of lack of intellect then what do we say? We say that God is just and will do the just thing.
     
  3. Rev. G

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    Mohler and Akin are actually taking the stance of the "early" Southern Baptists (c. 1845-1925) who were "Calvinistic" in their beliefs.
     
  4. Scott_Bushey

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    Rev,
    But what do you think of the statement?

    Since when are the sins of the believer judged?
     
  5. Rev. G

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    The way it is being presented neutralizes grace in a sense. It is asserting that infants are saved because they are without "actual" sin (acts of rebellion). That is false. Infants are saved because of one reason: God's grace! Period. They are not spared because they are innocent.

    As to the believer being "judged," verses such as Rom. 14:12 and 1 Cor. 3:10-15 speak of an accounting. We will give an account, but our sins were judged at the cross. Praise God!

    Rev. G
     
  6. Daniel David

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    Actually, I agree with Mohler on this issue. I think he is just being honest with the biblical text.

    Consider the following verses:

    Romans 2:6-10
    ESV
    6He will render to each one according to his works:
    7to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
    8but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.
    9There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek,
    10but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.

    NKJV
    6who "will render to each one according to his deeds":
    7eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
    8but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath,
    9tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
    10but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

    Believers are judged by their works. This text explicitly says that. Catholics say this passage is proof you get eternal life by doing these things. That is not true. It never mentions the works. It just says that those who do good are rewarded, and those who do wicked are punished.
     
  7. rlvaughn

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    CLICK HERE to go directly to the Mohler article referenced above.
     
  8. Scott_Bushey

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    PTW,
    You write:
    "Believers are judged by their works".
    You are correct, "works". That is a *gimme*.
    But Mohler is not talking of the Bema seat (work) judgement where believers will be judged on that which was false works for Christ and true ones.

    Mohler specifically says: "...That is, we will face the judgement seat of Christ and be judged, not on the basis of original sin, but for our sins committed during our own lifetimes".

    [ November 08, 2002, 06:13 PM: Message edited by: Scott_Bushey ]
     
  9. Jacob

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    Rev G,

    Is being "Calvinistic" something different than being today's version of a 5 pt Calvinst. If this is the case it makes a lot of sense...the following is a quote from the Abstract of Principles - 1858:

    IV. Providence.
    God from eternity, decrees or permits all things that come to pass, and perpetually upholds, directs and governs all creatures and all events; yet so as not to destroy the free will and responsibility of intelligent creatures.

    ...My 5pt Calvinist friends would never use the term "free will"; they hate the term.

    I wonder if the Calvinism of the "early" Southern Baptists is a little more watered down than what is being preached today by 5pt Calvinist (like yourself). What do you think?

    Jacob (this is my first post ever).
     
  10. Dr. Bob

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    Interesting thread, but totally NOT historical Baptist doctrinal view.

    God DOES judge my sins. At Calvary. No where else and never again. No matter what. Thank you, Jesus!

    To imply anything else questions God. So, salvation of an infant CANNOT rest upon works or our whole understanding of sovereignty and salvation goes down in flames.
     
  11. Rev. G

    Rev. G
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    Jacob:

    Welcome to the Baptist Board! [​IMG] I feel "honored" that you are addressing me on your first post. :D

    Good question! One may certainly be "Calvinistic" without being a "Calvinist," but a TRUE "5-pt. Calvinist" can (and should) affirm Article IV (Providence) of the Abstract of Principles with no problem whatsoever. The problem comes in the discussions / debates. I frequently employ the term "free will." I believe in free will. The question is, how do you define it? I define it in the sense that St. Augustine did. He differentiated between "free will" (which he declared everyone had) and "liberty" (which only the "elect" are given).

    This is more than you asked for, but, I established an evangelistic association and anyone serving on the board of directors is required to affirm the Abstract of Principles.

    This may be because they:
    1) Have never read St. Augustine and Jonathan Edwards;
    2) Only associate the term "free will" with what is commonly taught today - "absolute human autonomy."
    3) Are young and have not thought things out fully.

    No, it wasn't watered down at all. And, it is not different from what a "5-pt. Calvinist" like myself is preaching. I am an historic Southern Baptist. Check out this quote:

    "The people who sneer at what is called Calvinism might as well sneer at Mont Blanc. We are not in the least bound to defend all of Calvin's opinions or actions, but I do not see how any one who really understands the Greek of the Apostle Paul or the Latin of Calvin or Turretin can fail to see that these latter did but interpret and formulate substantially what the former teaches." - John Broadus

    John Broadus was the man who drafted the Abstract of Principles.

    Hope this helps. [​IMG] Again, welcome to the board! Hope we can have several discussions, especially on this topic.

    Rev. G
     
  12. Jacob

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    Rev. G,

    Thanks, that's good information. I am wrestling through the issue right now. I've been reading the debates on the Calvinism/Arminian forum for the last couple of months...will start posting soon.

    Jacob.
     
  13. Rev. G

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    I noticed elsewhere you are reading Geisler and Hunt on the issue. Before you read any more of Hunt's book, you might want to check out
    www.whatloveisthis.com

    For other reading on this issue, I would suggest the following:

    * The Works of James Arminius (3 vols), J. Arminius.
    * Potter's Freedom, James R. White.
    * On Free Choice of the Will, Augustine.
    * The City of God, Augustine.
    * Predestination and Free Will: Four Views of Divine Sovereignty and Human Freedom, ed. David Basinger and Randall Basinger.
    * The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, Loraine Boettner.
    * Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God, John Calvin.
    * The Only Wise God: The Compatibility of Divine Foreknowledge and Human Freedom, William Lane
    * Freedom of the Will, Jonathan Edwards.
    * Bondage of the Will, Martin Luther.
    * Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God J. I. Packer.
    * Grace Unlimited, Clark Pinnock.
    * The Grace of God, The Will of Man: A Case for Arminianism, ed. Clark Pinnock.
    * Still Sovereign: Contemporary Perspectives on Election, Foreknowledge, and Grace, ed. Thomas R. Schreiner and Bruce A. Ware.
    * Chosen by God, R. C. Sproul.
    * The Holiness of God, R. C. Sproul.
    * Willing to Believe, R. C. Sproul.
    * The Other Side of Calvinism, Laurence M. Vance.

    Hope this list helps.

    Rev. G
     
  14. Scott_Bushey

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    Rev,
    Did you give Jacob the cut-off date to finish reading "Ciy of God"?

    It's a quick read!

    [ November 11, 2002, 07:08 AM: Message edited by: Scott_Bushey ]
     
  15. Bible-boy

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    I know that's a joke. I had to read it for one of my History of Ideas classes here at Southeastern. I loved the book. It came as a refreshing wind after spending nearly two years reading Greek and Roman philosophy and drama. Then we read Aquinas' Suma Theologica, some of Anselm's work, then Luther, Erasmus, and Calvin. The Great Books of the Western World! You gota love em.
     
  16. Rev. G

    Rev. G
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    He has until 2027. :D

    Rev. G
     
  17. Jacob

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    Because I'm reading these books doesn't necessarily imply endorsement or agreement. I'm trying to expose myself to both viewpoints and decide for myself - I can honestly say that I don't have a significant bias either way. I've finished Geisler and have recently started Hunt. Initially I'm a little disapointed that Hunt doesn't do more head on tackling of the Calvinist proof texts - Geisler was better at that. Hunt seems to rely more on Philosophical type arguments.

    I got a similiar list of books on the subject from CRI. My next book is gonna be the Potter's Freedom, although I'm quite familiar with the Calvinist side because I have many friends of that persuasion, including my former Pastor.

    Jacob.
     

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