Draw = Taught = hear and learn - Jn. 6:45

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by The Biblicist, Jul 25, 2013.

  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
    45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.


    Jesus defines what He means by the Father drawing a person in verse 45.

    To be drawn by the Father is to be "Taught" by the Father - v. 45a

    It is not possible to teach anyone anything unless they both hear and learn from the teacher. Therefore, to be taught by God is to have "heard" and to have "learned" from the Father.

    To have "heard" and to have "learned" from the Father is to be TAUGHT by the Father and to be TAUGHT by the Father is what it means to be DRAWN by the Father.

    Who is it that comes to Christ?

    1. NONE of those who have "heard" and "learned" of the Father?
    2. SOME of those who have "heard" and "learned" of the Father?
    3. "EVERY MAN" that has "heard" and "learned" of the Father?

    Therefore, "him" that is drawn IS the "him" that is raised to life eternal because "EVERY MAN" drawn/taught/heard/learned does come to Christ.
     
    #1 The Biblicist, Jul 25, 2013
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  2. Winman

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    You are reading into scripture what it does not say.

    Verse 44 says no man can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him. It does not say all who are drawn will come.

    Verse 45 does not define drawn as being taught, although every man that hears and learns of the Father will come to Jesus.

    Many are drawn, but they refuse to hear and be taught.

    Pro 1:20 Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:
    21 She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying,
    22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
    23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
    24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
    25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
    26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
    27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
    28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
    29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
    30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
    31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
    32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.
    33 But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.

    God calls and draws the foolish and the simple, but they refuse to listen to God, they hated knowledge and did not choose the fear of the LORD.

    But those who willingly listen and learn from the Father will come to Jesus.

    Many are called, but few are chosen.
     
    #2 Winman, Jul 25, 2013
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  3. The Biblicist

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    You are ignoring the inseperable contextual relationship of verse 45 to verse 44. Verse 45 does explain that to be drawn by the Father is to be taught by the Father as there is no other contextual based purpose for quoting Isaiah 54:13 but to be explanatory of what it means to be drawn by the Father.

    What other contextual relationship does it provide for verse 44 other than that??? The Isaiah 54:13 "They shall be all taught of God" stands in apposition to "No man can come to me except the Father draw him"

    YOu have no contextual basis to deny that the quotation of Isaiah 54:13 is purposely inserted by Christ at this point to be explanatory of what it means to be drawn by the Father.

    This admission repudiates everything you denied above. You cannot possibly deny that the second clause of verse 45 is not explanatory of the first clause that contains Isa. 54:13. Hence:

    1. How many will be taught of God? ANSWER: "ALL"

    2. Can anyone be taught by anyone who never "heard" and "learned from the teacher? NO!

    3. Hence, "ALL" equals "EVERY MAN" once again demanding that "ALL" taught come to Christ as there is no rational way to deny that "TAUGHT" meanst to have "heard' and "learned" from God.



    1. First, this text confirms Romans 8:7 and total inability

    2. Nowhere does this text use the term "draw"

    3. The text says "wisdom" and the "counsel" rather than any direct reference to the PERSON of God as in John 6:44-45.

    4. The drawing in John 6:44 is defined by its context to be completely different than this text.
     
    #3 The Biblicist, Jul 25, 2013
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  4. Winman

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    You don't have a clue what you are talking about, and you do not know how to rightly divide the word.

    Verse 45 simply says that those who have heard from the Father and have learned and been taught by him shall come to Jesus, it does not say a word about being drawn.

    Proverbs chapter 1 clearly shows God calls out to foolish and simple men, he stretches his hands out to them, he tells them if they to turn at his reproof and he will pour out his Spirit to them, and teach them his words. This is being drawn, it is being enticed by God.

    But these men are able to turn away, they did not love knowledge, and they did not "choose" (refutes inability) the fear of the LORD.

    However, those men who do hearken to God and are taught by him shall dwell safely.

    Isa 54:13 simply says God's children shall be taught by God, it says nothing about being drawn.

    Another passage that shows God calling and drawing men is Matthew 22 where God calls many people to the wedding of his Son, but they refuse to come.

    Mat 22:1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
    2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
    3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
    4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
    5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
    6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
    7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

    These men were drawn by God, they were called and bidden to come to the wedding of his son, but they refused and made excuse.

    Calvinism is ridiculous, it is EASY to refute both Total Inability and Irresistible Grace, it is easy to refute all of Calvinism. Only a fanatic would hold to such false doctrine when there is so much scripture that easily refutes it.

    If you want to keep on believing nonsense, that is your choice, but I am no fool.
     
  5. The Biblicist

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    It is baffling to me that anyone would deny that verse 45 is intentionally a quotation and explanation of scripture directly related to what he just said in verse 44???????

    Furthmore, it is equally baffling to deny that "draw" by God involves some inner type of interaction between God and the person being drawn that would take the form of teaching, hearing, learning from God in regard to His Son.

    Finally, Jesus only quotes scripture to confirm what He he asserts and verse 44 is what has just been asserted by Christ that would call for a scriptural quotation to confirm.
     
  6. Winman

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    If your mind is baffled, it is because you have allowed yourself to be confused by the false doctrine of Calvinism. Verse 45 simply says those who have heard from the Father and have learned and been taught by him shall come to Jesus.

    Proverbs 1 shows that foolish and scornful men refuse to listen and learn, because they loved simplicity and hated knowledge. Their simplicity shall lead to their destruction, but men who hearken to God shall dwell safely.

    You are constantly inserting your presuppositions into scripture when they are not there, this is a perfect example. John 6:45 does not say one word about being drawn. it is simply explaining that men who have listened to the Father and been taught by him will absolutely come to Jesus. This is exactly what Proverbs 1 is teaching.

    Verse 45 does not teach that all who are drawn shall come to Jesus, and Proverbs 1 and Matthew 22 also show that not all who are drawn shall come to Jesus.

    You need to read scripture for what it says and quit trying to read Calvinism INTO scripture when it is not there.
     
  7. The Biblicist

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    You are telling us that Jesus all of a sudden quotes a specific scripture but totally unrelated to what He just asserted? That is what you are telling us!

    You know that such a response is not objective at all and that is why you open up your post with personal insults toward me as your respnse does not make sense.

    Then you JUMP out of context to an Old Testament passage to READ IT BACK into John 6 when John 6 provides its own explanation in verse 45 which you simply reject.

    Your Old Testament passage deals entirely with EXTERNAL influences from God while John 6:44-45 deals with INTERNAL influences from God.

    Your Old Testament passage confirms total depravity as clearly expressed that it is the ungodly and foolish that respond ONE WAY - negatively - again confirming Romans 8:7 which is about the "carnal" or ungodly man.

    Your post is filled with insults and demeaning words but totally bankrupt of any objective handling of John 6:44-45 or any kind of exegetical explanation from the immediate context.

    You expect the readers to believe that Christ arbitrarily quotes scripture at this specific point with no relationship to what he just stated?????? Only a strongly biased mind operates like that.
     
  8. The Biblicist

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    Your attitude is not worth dealing with. You have so much hatred in you that you cannot objectively deal with either scripture or opponents. Your posts are full of personal insults. Nothing exegetically based can be found in your posts. They are simply full of enmity.
     
  9. DrJamesAch

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    Verse 45 is actually a solid refutation of the Calvinist view of "draw". The Calvinist view of total inability claims that no man could possibly learn of the Father or hear him and be taught until AFTER they have been drawn and saved irresistibly. Verse 45 shows the exact opposite, that those who come to Christ are those who HAVE learned and heard. Verse 45 blows up Calvinist theology like a guerrilla in an outhouse overdosed on Ex Lax.
     
  10. Winman

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    Well, I find your attitude to be especially annoying. You don't listen to anybody, you make ridiculous illogical arguments, and you insult anybody who disagrees with you.

    You also come across as a mega-ego-maniac. I have never seen anybody quote themselves over and over again like you do.

    You twist scripture and grammar, think you know Greek when it is obvious you do not, I could just go on and on...

    John 6:45 does not say one word about drawing equating with being taught. I have showed you scripture like Proverbs 1 and Matthew 22 where God is earnestly calling people, begging them to come to him, promising to teach them if they come, but they hated knowledge and did not choose (refuting inability) the fear of the LORD.

    To any unbiased person there is no argument, God clearly calls and draws men who do not come, it is shown repeatedly in scripture.

    Mat 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

    This scripture is so obvious that God is calling and drawing folks that refuse to come to him that a person must intentionally ignore scripture to deny it.

    And Jesus did not say they "could not" come, he said "would not". There is not one word to support inability in this verse.

    You know, even Luke has admitted that some scripture does appear to support non-Cal/Arminianism. I think folks would faint if you ever admitted that.

    I won't be holding my breath.
     
  11. The Biblicist

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    That is our position for EXTERNAL instruction by the Lord NOT for INTERNAL instruction by the Lord. Here the word "taught" is defined to include both having "heard" and having "learned" of the Father. Indeed our position is that regeneration is the creation of divine revelation WITHIN the inner darkness of the elect:

    2 Cor. 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

    Note this is INNER knowledge by divine fiat as in Genesis 1:3.

    Second, the kind of drawing by the Father in verse 44 is the kind that is essential for anyone to come to Christ - that demands it is INTERNAL instruction rather than EXTERNAL as in Proverbs.

    So this text completely repudiates your intepretation.
     
  12. The Biblicist

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    I have not got into an insulting match with you or anyone else since I have come on to this particular forum and I am not about to start. Good day!
     
  13. Winman

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    You Calvinists are a joke, whenever someone shows scripture that easily refutes your doctrine, you guys blow smoke and make up all kind of nonsense never shown in scripture to explain it away. You invent the "general call" and the "effectual call" when there is not a single word of scripture to support this nonsense, etc...

    Honestly, how can anybody be so dumb to fall for this junk?

    When folks are having to constantly explain away what scripture plainly appears to say, something is seriously wrong.

    Don't be fooled folks, if Calvinism was true, they wouldn't have to explain away scripture and redefine words like they do. Non-Cals and Arminians never have to do this.
     
  14. Winman

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    Don't go away mad, just go away. :laugh:
     
  15. DrJamesAch

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    You are ascribing this 'inner knowledge" to a person before they are even saved and acting as if the person possesses this 'inner knowledge' which then becomes activated upon actual salvation thus resurrecting a dormant inner gnosis.

    That is absolute pure Gnostic garbage. You can't claim that man has this 'inner knowledge' WHILE IN A STATE OF TOTAL INABILITY and be consistent with any form of Calvinist theology. It is an outright contradiction and purely eisegetical to the text.
     
  16. The Biblicist

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    Neither James or Winman can explain why Jesus quoted Isaiah 54:13 at this particular point after immediately stating verse 44. They simply dismiss it and disconnect it from verse 44.

    Second, they respond by trying to make a case out texts outside the context that deal with EXTERNAL instruction or arguments based upon EXTERNAL instruction when John 6:44 obviously MUST deal with an INTERNAL act of God as it is required for anyone to come to Christ in faith.

    Third, the quotation of Isaiah 54:13 at this precise point provides the INTERNAL CHARCTER of this kind of drawing that is necessary for anyone to come to Christ in faith.

    Fourth, this drawing is INTERNAL instruction by God "taught of God" that requires having "heard" and having "learned" from God that "EVERY MAN" exposed to it does in fact come to Christ in faith.

    This is what it means to provide an exposition of this text. This exposition is not contary to an exegetical basis of this text.

    No insults, no demeaning names, just plain contextual based objective Biblical reasoning.
     
  17. The Biblicist

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    I am not going anywhere. What I am going to do is provide a sound exposition based upon sound exegesis, which is something you have not done and cannot do.
     
  18. The Biblicist

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    Note the context of 2 Cor. 4:6! It is in the middle of preaching the Gospel in opposition to Satanic influence. It is God that commands the light of knowledge to shine in THE INNER DARKNESS of the lost. You accusations are against Paul not me! He said this of the lost in the context of preaching the gospel not me!

    6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

    More insults. Typical of those who are incapable of an expository or exegetical based response but are angry. It is this act of God that removes them from darkness to light - it is called divine quickening inseparable from faith as it creates persuasion based on direct knowledge which faith consists.
     
    #18 The Biblicist, Jul 25, 2013
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  19. Winman

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    Well, I need to get to bed soon, so I'll leave you alone for awhile.

    But your explanation of John 6:45 is error, it does not mention being drawn in this verse, it says that those men who have heard from the Father and have learned and been taught by him shall come to Jesus.

    Proverbs 1 shows that God calls to men, promising to pour out his Spirit and make his words KNOWN to them, but they refuse because they hated knowledge, and this is why they do not come. They are drawn, but they were not taught.

    Pro 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
    24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;

    Pro 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

    These verses show God can call and draw a man, entice him, and promise to teach him, but a foolish man can refuse because he hates knowledge.

    So a man can be drawn but not taught.
     
  20. The Biblicist

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    You are just acknowledging you have no idea why Jesus quoted Isaiah 54:13 at this point or what its relationship is to verse 44.

    You are still repeating the erroneous comparison of a text dealing with EXTERNAL influence to attempt to explain a text that must refer to INTERNAL influence by God.

    In other words, you have provided no exposition of this text at all.

    The fact that verse 46 denies that any man has seen God demands that verse 45 is the INTERNAL UNSEEN work of God that Jesus defines as drawing by God in verse 44 which is necessary to come to Christ in faith.
     
    #20 The Biblicist, Jul 25, 2013
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