1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Drawing and John 6

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by jbh28, Apr 30, 2010.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Top Posters
Page 10 of 10
  1. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2008
    Messages:
    3,761
    Likes Received:
    2
    if a person didn't go to the concert, they couldn't say they drew you to the concert. you might have been drawn.(end of sentence) but you were not drawn TO the concert. When a concert says they dew a large audience and only 1 person came, would you say they were correct? Well, thousands of people wanted to come but at the last minute couldn't come for some reason. No, only the ones that came were drawn TO the concert.
     
    #181 jbh28, May 22, 2010
  2. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    1
    The reference to being "drawn part way" is what we are allowing for in our interpretation of the text. Like the illustration of when the seed falls on good soil but is snatched up by the birds or strangled by the weeds...one could argue they were "drawn" or the gospel itself "appealed" to them but they didn't come all the way to salvation. Something got in the way. Something kept them from being drawn all the way to Christ. Understand?

    Another point that should be mentioned here is regarding why Jesus would use such a strong work like ἕλκω in this passage. Remember, He is speaking to a crowd of people who are being judicially hardened. That means they have been given eyes of stupor and ears that cannot hear. The ONLY way they could become one of the disciples (like the 12) would be if God had reserved them from that hardening and shown them the truth clearly, as he did with the 12. The point therefore Jesus is making is that the apostles had been "drawn" out of Israel, while the rest are being hardened, thus NO ONE could come to Christ because the gospel had not yet gone out.

    I agree that God must draw a person before he can come. I hope you understand that.


    I agree. And in the context of John 6 the "effectual" work of drawing the remnant of Israel had already taken place. But, to presume that God will call all those who believe in their message by the same effectual means is unfounded. Proving God effectually caused Jonah to be a missionary to Nineveh is not proof that those who believed his message where likewise effectually caused to believe.
     
    #182 Skandelon, May 22, 2010
  3. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2008
    Messages:
    3,761
    Likes Received:
    2
    No problem. you are using context instead of changing the definition. I believe it means draws to Christ. No man can come TO CHRIST unless the father draws him? Draws him to where?

    Another point that should be mentioned here is regarding why Jesus would use such a strong work like ἕλκω in this passage. Remember, He is speaking to a crowd of people who are being judicially hardened. That means they have been given eyes of stupor and ears that cannot hear. The ONLY way they could become one of the disciples (like the 12) would be if God had reserved them from that hardening and shown them the truth clearly, as he did with the 12. The point therefore Jesus is making is that the apostles had been "drawn" out of Israel, while the rest are being hardened, thus NO ONE could come to Christ because the gospel had not yet gone out.[/quote]
    so is the passage non-relevant today? but then you say...
    good

    Not quite sure what you are saying here.
     
    #183 jbh28, May 22, 2010
  4. Winman

    Winman Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    2
    This is getting ridiculous. You are forcing only one definition of the word drawn on the word. I would bet that most of your Calvinist friends here would say you are being extreme to say the least. Spurgeon absolutely showed that he did not believe the word drawn to mean to completion, he said all men who hear the gospel are drawn, but not all come. He said a man can resist or pull back against this drawing to the point to where Jesus gives up on the man. Do I really need to post his quotes again?

    You are just being stubborn and obstinate. A person can be drawn to many things, and the attraction or pull can be quite strong. A smoker who gives up smoking is very drawn to smoke again for many months, but many people successfully resist the temptation and quit.

    But you make the ridiculous argument these persons were not drawn at all. It is absurd, and very disingenuous on your part if you ask me. You know quite clearly what everybody is saying, and you know from your own personal experience that a person can be drawn, be enticed, be attracted to something but resist it. If you don't know this, you have to be one the most inexperienced persons around, my children understand this.

    But you go right on being stubborn, it does not and will never make you correct.
     
    #184 Winman, May 22, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: May 22, 2010
  5. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2008
    Messages:
    3,761
    Likes Received:
    2
    I wonder if you have the ability to read any better than a child. I didn't say there was only one definition of the word draw now did I. I said that for something to have been drawn TO something, it means it is complete. And the dictionary(including the ones you gave) supported this. Drawing is a different term, it means it isn't complete. People may be drawn, but are they drawn TO CHRIST. At least Skandelon recognizes this. We disagree, but he is using context to say that it doesn't mean to Christ here.
    using the wrong term doesn't make the definition change.
    where have I said that? I said they were not drawn to Christ.

    Again, using an 11 year old isn't a valid argument. they don't have a full grasp of language. Maybe that is your problem, you think too much like a child. you can be attracted to something , but not drawn to something. Go back and re-read the examples YOU gave. A concert draws a crowd. Who are the ones it has drawn? Only the ones that came.
    Now you have just resorted to attacks on the person instead of the argument. Very telling. At least Skandelon recognizes what the term means. The difference between him and me is that of the context of the term.

    It's not ridiculous. You didn't even have a good answer to what I said in the quote. What is ridiculous that you have taken this way too personally. You should step back for a while and take a breath. I do not come here to attack others for their beliefs, but to learn. Skandelon has made some very good points. I may not agree, but at least he has stuck with the subject instead of attempting to make it personal. Of that, I have high respect for him. I can respect a person and disagree with them at the same time.
     
    #185 jbh28, May 22, 2010
  6. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2002
    Messages:
    7,359
    Likes Received:
    2
    Hiya Rippon, it's nice to see you, too. I don't remember Winman. I remember Skandelon [attack snipped]
     
    #186 npetreley, May 22, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: May 22, 2010
  7. Winman

    Winman Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    2
    You are using a play on words and circular reasoning. You are simply saying for something to be drawn TO something, it must be drawn TO something.

    I get it, everybody gets it. But that is not the definition of the word drawn, no matter how often you say it is. Spurgeon didn't insist something had to be drawn TO something to be drawn, and he was a Calvinist. He said all men who hear the gospel are drawn TO Christ, but not all that are drawn come.

    You are playing with the word TO.

    And the funny part is, Jesus didn't say all men would be drawn to him, he said UNTO him. So, you are arguing about a word that isn't even in John 12:32.

    Strong's defines this word unto as:

    1) to the advantage of
    2) at, near, by
    3) to, towards, with, with regard to

    And as you see, this word does not mean a person will be brought to completion 100% of the time. Definition #2 (which comes before #3), says NEAR or BY.

    You have said repeatedly that if a person doesn't come, they weren't drawn. Now you are being cute (NOT) by adding the word "to" to drawn. But that is not what you said in earlier posts. For example, here is something you wrote in post #83.

    Uh oh, you forgot to say TO here.

    All this just goes to show you will shift your position, and change definitions to make yourself appear correct, when clearly you are in error.

    You know, I thought if I posted Spurgeon's sermon, that you would actually listen to him. I knew you would never take my word for it. But you are determined to hold to your doctrine no matter the cost. That is your problem not mine.
     
    #187 Winman, May 22, 2010
  8. jbh28

    jbh28 Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2008
    Messages:
    3,761
    Likes Received:
    2
    Again, more false witnessing. I said that for a person to be drawn to something it means he came to something.

    I'm not arguing about Spurgeon(which totally agrees with me by the way). Also, All men are drawn doesn't equal all men are drawn to Christ.
    Actually he did say "to". Same word for "unto" as "to" and it is translated as to as well as "unto." We would translate it as "to" today.
    Were you being serious? You don't determine a definition by the order it appears. You determine it by its context. Maybe you are on an elementary level of language. Context determines what it means. To and towards can have different meanings. And in the term draw, it does. to be drawn to something and to be drawn toward something can have different meanings. It's not play on words, it called understanding language and how language works. to be drawn toward something can mean that you were on your way, but didn't make it. But to be drawn to something, it means you came in the sense it is being used here. Like the example you gave from the dictionary about a concert drew a large audience. the large audience are the ones that came.


    No, no, no. please stop lying. I said that if a person is drawn TO something, it means he came TO that something. I have corrected you many times on this misrepresentation and now it must just by lying.

    And by context of our discussion(which was obvious) I was referring being drawn to something. This is something I have said many times, but you keep removing the word to and assuming it isn't in the sentence.


    Sorry, I though you were bight enough to understand that by the context of our discussion.

    you lie again. i haven't shifted my positions. And even if I did, would that be a problem? If I realized I was wrong and changed my position, how would that be a bad thing?
    you do realize that Spurgeon agrees with me right? Also, Spurgeon isn't my final authority. Again, you can't seem to debate what I say, you like to misrepresent.
     
    #188 jbh28, May 22, 2010
  9. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    1
    Hey Nick. Sure good to have you back. I missed all the personal attacks and overall immaturity. I have no idea what you are talking about. I'm not a puppet for anyone and I don't know of anyone who got kicked off this board for lying to anyone. You need to get your facts straight before making accusations.
     
    #189 Skandelon, May 22, 2010
  10. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2003
    Messages:
    9,638
    Likes Received:
    1
    It's relevant in that we need God to do something in order for us to believe the gospel. He had to send the gospel. That is the means God has chosen to draw all men to himself. In John 6 it hasn't yet been sent out and the Jews are being hardened so that they can't believe or come to Christ. ONly those individual selected by God for Christ where willing to stick around with him because they are the "remnant of Israel" reserved from the judicially hardening process.


    You need to try and understand my perspective on this so you at least understand what you are attempting to refute. I don't care if you agree, but I would like for you to understand. Why I was a Calvinist I really didn't understand this perspective either, most Calvinists today don't.
     
    #190 Skandelon, May 22, 2010
  11. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    30,285
    Likes Received:
    507
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Good/bad content thus far but I must have missed that it is so far past the 10-page limit. my fault but closing it now.

    If anyone desires to take a point missed or not developed and start a new thread, go for it.
     
    #191 Dr. Bob, May 22, 2010
Page 10 of 10
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...