Drawing and John Ch. 6 part deux

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by convicted1, May 22, 2010.

  1. convicted1

    convicted1
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    The reason why I am starting another thread on this topic is because I "posted" a reply last night, and for some odd reason, I can't find it, and now it is closed.

    This is directed to JBH. I agree with "election", "chosen", "drawn", etc, but not in the way you do, my dear Brother in Christ. Let's take a look at Judas Iscariot. Wasn't he one of the twelve Disciples Jesus CHOSE? Didn't Jesus state this right before Judas betrayed Him? "Have I not CHOSEN you twelve, and one of you is a DEVIL". Judas was given the same powers of the other eleven, he even carried the money bag/purse.

    Now, I know the scripture says that those who the Father draws will come unto me, and I will raise him up in the last day. But, think closely on this. Jesus is going to raise us ALL up on the last day. The dead in Christ shall rise first, and then those that dead in their sins shall also be risen. They (both saint and sinner), will be given new spiritual bodies, just the dead in Christ will be given a "Most GLORIFIED" body, liken unto Christ. So whether we are saved or not, Christ will raise us all. Now, getting back to Judas. Seeing that Christ CHOSE him, will he go to heaven? NO! Judas saw the miracles that Jesus did, he saw Him calm the storm while they were on the ship, they saw Him bring Lazarus forth from the grave, they saw Him cast demons from the boy whose dad referred to him as a lunatick,(BTW, they couldn't cast his demons out, only Jesus could), they saw Him cure the woman with the 12 years issue of blood, just to name a few of the miracles He did. And yet, after seeing all these, Judas betrayed Him for 30 pieces of silver. Why? Because he CHOSE to love the riches of the world more than Jesus Himself. So, whenever the "Call" comes our way, we will respond with a "yea", or a "nay". God called me for years, but I turned Him away each time. Then one day, PRAISE HIS SWEET NAME!!!, He broke through and made me relize I was lost, and without Him, the Lake of Fire was my eternal home. It was then, that I chose to seek after Him. Then on May 24th, 2007, He came in, bound up the "strong man", and cast him out. He then spoiled his goods, and took over my life. I am His, PRAISE THE LORD!! I know, Bro. JBH, you won't "buy" most of what I am trying to "sell" here, but it's the way I see things. I love you Brother!!

    I am I am's!!

    Willis
     
  2. Dr. Walter

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    Willis,

    I hope you don't mind if I offer you my two cents worth. There is a difference between choosing someone to the office of apostle and choosing them to salvation. The former is temporal and the latter is eternal.

    Furthermore, look at John 6:64-65 and you will see that Judas was not drawn in the sense that John 6:44-45, 65 speak of. Jesus lumps Judas into that group of professed believers who he knew never really believed savingly in him at all.

    Also, notice the change from "draw" in verse 44 to "given unto him" in verse 65. What was never "given unto" Judas was saving faith as that was what was missing in verse 64. Saving faith is the work of God (Jn. 6:29) and is "given unto him" (drawn) and all it is "given unto" (draw) comes - v. 44




     
  3. convicted1

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    This is copy/pasted from John Ch. 6:

    64But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. (This is foreknowledge in a nutshell, not foreordained)

    65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

    66From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

    67Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? (none of the original 12 left when the others did, and Judas stayed with Him)

    68Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

    69And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. (Peter said "we", not "me" or "I", so who is the "we"?. I believe it was the 12 Disciples collectively)

    70Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

    71He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

    Bro Walter,

    What you have stated still doesn't negate the fact that Jesus gave Judas the same powers that the other eleven had. He has power to heal the lame, blind, sick, etc. And as it states in John 6:70, "and one of you is a devil"? I was a "devil",if you will, when God drew me, so was any true born again CHRISTian.

    Romans Ch. 5:
    [6] For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.(I know this gets thrown in quite a bit) So if Christ died for the ungodly, then He will draw the ungodly.

    Now, who are the "ungodly"?

    Romans Ch. 3:
    [23] For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

    Romans Ch. 5:
    [12] Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned

    Who is Jesus death for?

    1John Ch.2:
    [2] And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world

    Again Romans Ch. 5:
    [6] For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

    There are so many places, of which I have shown a few, that shows that Christ died for the ungodly, He is the propitiation for the sins of the WHOLE world, and even John the Baptist knew this:

    John Ch. 1:
    [29] The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

    So, if Christ takes away the sin of the whole world, then the whole world will be offered salvation. Like I have told others that hold to the DoG, I know you won't accept this, but I still love you anyways.

    Sidenote: why is it referred to the Doctrines of Grace, when there is only one true doctrine?

    Eph Ch. 2:

    8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    This is the one TRUE doctrine of Grace, not Doctrines.

    I love you Bro. Dr. Walter!! Have a blessed meeting at church today!!
    :jesus::godisgood::thumbs::1_grouphug:

    I am Iam's!!

    Willis
     
    #3 convicted1, May 23, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: May 23, 2010
  4. jbh28

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    What was Judas chosen to? He wasn't chosen to salvation, he was chosen to be on the of disciples. What you are doing here is equating the term chosen and making it mean the same in two different places. You took "chosen" in regards to salvation, and then took "chosen" in regards to Judas and made them the same. There are different choosing in the Bible. God chose Israel. God has chosen sinners to save. God chose to send Jesus to die for our sins. Jesus chose his disciples. We are chosen to do different tasks.
     
  5. convicted1

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    Dear JBH,

    First of all, thanks for the reply to this thread! Now, getting to what you have just posted. None of what you said negates the fact that Judas was CHOSEN of the Lord. Those who hold to the DoG, say that all that Jesus draws, will come to Him, and He will raise him up in the last day. Jesus CHOSE Judas, whether to be a Disciple/Apsotle, or to salvation, Jesus CHOSE HIM(Judas). The verse you used states that all who are drawn will come, and be raised on the last day. So wasn't Judas chosen/drawn to be a Disciple? I know that Jesus knew(foreknowledge) what each one of the twelve would do, so He knew that Judas would betray Him before he was chosen of the Lord. The word "draw", means come, correct? So if Judas was drawn, and he came, and then betrayed Jesus, then what?

    All I can go by is my experience with the Lord. He "drew" me for years, but I wouldn't heed to the "calling". I knew it was Him who was telling me that I was doing wrong, but I wanted to live my life my way, have my fun, etc. But one day, He got through to me, and I began down the road of repentance. Why? Because I CHOSE to obey that still, small voice that was telling me all I ever did. Not once was I begged of the Lord, but through His longsuffering(patience), He never gave up on me. But when I CHOSE to serve the Lord, and gave Him my whole heart, He saved me....Bless His sweet name!
    Now, I could have went on living my sinful life, and rejected the "calls" of God, and died lost.

    Getting back to Judas for a few secs now. Jesus knew He would betray Him, so I think that is why Jesus chose him. The scriptures had to be fulfilled, whether Judas, Peter, Thomas, Bartholemew(sp?), betrayed Him. That being said, Jesus CHOSE a devil. Why? To fulfill the scriptures that He was/is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. The Lamb that John saw in Rev. Ch 5, that has seven eyes and seven horns. Now don't get me wrong, Judas will be raised up by Jesus in the last day:raised up with all the others who died lost. I hope this hasn't muddied up the waters. It's hard for me to express myself properly through a keyboard! I love you Bro JBH!!

    I am I am's!!

    Willis
     
  6. convicted1

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    This is what you, Bro. JBH wrote:"What was Judas chosen to? He wasn't chosen to salvation, he was chosen to be on the of disciples."

    Do you have scripture that will back that Judas was chosen to be a Disciple only? Not being mean with this, but I would like something to back this claim up. I love you!!

    I am I am"s!!

    Willis
     
  7. Dr. Walter

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    You certainly quoted John 6:64-65 but did you read it??? If you had read it you would clearly see that Jesus is placing Judus in the camp of UNBELIEVERS and in John 6:70 that Jesus is admitting that He chose a "devil" from the beginning! Why? To fulfill prophecy.

    John 6:64-65 is a denial by Christ that He "drew" Judas in the sense he defines drawing in John 6:44-45. It is black and white.

    Now, it is assumed that the power of Judas came from Christ to perform miracles, but remember, Jesus claims he was a "devil" from the beginning and Satan has all the power to counterfit such miracles (2 Thes. 2:9). Those in Matthew 7:21-23 claimed Jesus as "Lord" and claimed to have cast out demons "in thy name" and yet Jesus claimed "I NEVER knew you."

    Miracle working power is not evidence of salvation. I don't know what to tell you other than what Christ tells you about Judas in John 6:64-65 - HE WAS NEVER DRAWN TO CHRIST IN SALVATION but he remained an unbeliever, though a PROFESSED believer in Christ. He is therefore not a good example for your doctrinal argument.


     
  8. jbh28

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    1. Basically because I don't believe Judas was ever saved.
    2. No where are we told Judas was chosen for salvation.(the passage here is very clear Jesus was speaking about choosing his disciples.)
     
  9. jbh28

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    John 6 and the drawing is in the context of Salvation.
    Of course you chose that, but that because God changed you to be able to see. And yes, if you never accepted, you would have died lost.

    Not be raised up in the sense that it is being used in chapter 6.

    vs 39-40 "And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

    vs 44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."

    vs 54 " Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."

    Jesus uses the expression 4 times in this passage. Jesus is speaking about raising up to eternal life in heaven.
     
  10. Skandelon

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    I think it is interesting that the Calvinists are now arguing that John 6's reference to the ones being chosen is in reference to being a disciple, when that is what I have argued all along.

    In fact, the very reason that the rest of Israel couldn't come to Jesus was because they were being hardened. Calvinists insist that the reason the people in John 6 could not believe was because they were not chosen to be saved, but what does Jesus say the reason is?

    For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere: "He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them."

    So, its not because they were born "Totally Depraved" and "unchosen" that they couldn't come to Jesus. It was because they weren't chosen to be his disciples. Israel, as a whole, was being blinded to the truth so as to accomplish the crucifixion. It is only AFTER Christ is raised up that he will send the disciples out with the message of reconcilitation to appeal for the world to be reconciled to God.
     
  11. Dr. Walter

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    64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
    65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
    66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.


    Notice that verse 65 is sandwiched between verses 64 and 66 for good reason. In verse 64 Jesus explicitly reveals that He knew who the real unbelievers were among his professed disciples - "some of you believe not." In verse 66 these are the ones that "went back." They went back upon their profession. The "walked no more with him" and demonstrated their profession had been empty.

    Now, verse 65 is the explanation that Christ gives for why they did not believe and why they went back on their profession and walked with him no more.

    In verse 65 the words "therefore said I unto you" has direct reference to John 6:44 and the statement that no man can come to Christ but those drawn by the Father, and those will not "draw back" or "walk with him no more" because "him" that is drawn is "him" that Christ promises to raise up again at the last day.

    Furthermore, in verse 65 Jesus replaces the words "draw him" by the words "given unto him." What is it that the Father has to give unto him so that he will not draw back and walk no more with Christ?? What is it that Jesus explicitly states is missing in those mentioned in verse 64??? "some of you BELIEVE NOT." The ability to believe savingly unto the end is what is missing and that is what must be "given unto him of the Father." All others have false professions empty of genuine saving faith as that is the "work of God" (v. 29) performed by God WITHIN man.

    This is the simple and obvious truth of this context. Judas was included in the group of unbelievers. However, Judas continued to walk with Christ in order to fulfill the Old Testament prophesy, not because he was a believer for Christ said he was a "devil" long before his betrayal.

    To be drawn by Christ in the sense of John 6:44-45 is to be "given" by the Father true saving faith and all that are drawn or given such are raised to eternal life.
     
  12. convicted1

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    To Bros. JBH and Dr. Walter:

    I know that you and I don't see "eye-to-eye" on the matter of "all" being drawn vs. "some" being drawn. But I believe the scriptures back me up better than it does you two. Here's why. If there is limited atonement, then some will never be "drawn" to Christ. Who draws them unto Christ? God the Father. If God only draws "some", then that makes the Father a "respector of persons". Now, let us see what the scriptures(both OT and NT) have to say about this:

    Deuteronomy 1:17
    Ye shall not respect persons in judgment; but ye shall hear the small as well as the great; ye shall not be afraid of the face of man; for the judgment is God's: and the cause that is too hard for you, bring it unto me, and I will hear it.
    Deuteronomy 16:19
    Thou shalt not wrest judgment; thou shalt not respect persons, neither take a gift: for a gift doth blind the eyes of the wise, and pervert the words of the righteous.
    2 Chronicles 19:7
    Wherefore now let the fear of the LORD be upon you; take heed and do it: for there is no iniquity with the LORD our God, nor respect of persons, nor taking of gifts.
    Proverbs 24:23
    These things also belong to the wise. It is not good to have respect of persons in judgment.
    Proverbs 28:21
    To have respect of persons is not good: for for a piece of bread that man will transgress.
    Acts 10:34
    Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
    Romans 2:11
    For there is no respect of persons with God.
    Ephesians 6:9
    And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.
    Colossians 3:25
    But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.
    James 2:1
    My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
    James 2:9
    But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
    1 Peter 1:17
    And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:


    Here my question to both of you. Why would God give the command to not make a respect of persons, and then turn around and do this Himself? Peter plainly stated that God is no respecter of persons, but only after he saw that the Holy Ghost fell upon those who were in the room, at Cornelius' house. He then saw that the Gift was also available to the Gentiles as well. So yes, God is no repespecter of persons, so then the same "Gift" will be offered to ALL> Only those who are willing to accept this "Gift"(God's only begotten Son, Jesus), will come when the Father "draws them. I love you both, and I hope there is no ill will between us. I love discussing the scriptures with those who have opposing views, so that I can "dig" deeper in His Word. May God bless you both!!

    i am I am's!!

    Willis
     
  13. jbh28

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    God will not send anybody to hell because God has no respect of persons.

    See what happens when you take verses out of context? God will judge people with no respect of persons. Weather you are male or female, smart dumb, rich or poor, good speler:) or bad speller, God will judge all equally. Either you will be guilty or innocent(Christ's righteousness imputed to us). You can't take the phrase out of its context and apply it to everybody. Was God a respect of persons when he chose to Jews over the gentiles to be his chosen people? Was God a respecter of persons when he chose the 12 deciples over the other people?

    You said...
    What does this have to do with limited atonement? And unless you think everybody will go to heaven, then some won't be drawn TO Christ.
     
  14. convicted1

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    Bro JBH,

    It's funny how you brought up the Jews in OT times. God is a God that is not "set in stone", in that He can, and does change His mind. Here are some examples:

    Numbers Ch. 14:
    11And the LORD said unto Moses, How long will this people provoke me? and how long will it be ere they believe me, for all the signs which I have shewed among them?

    12I will smite them with the pestilence, and disinherit them, and will make of thee a greater nation and mightier than they.

    13And Moses said unto the LORD, Then the Egyptians shall hear it, (for thou broughtest up this people in thy might from among them;)

    14And they will tell it to the inhabitants of this land: for they have heard that thou LORD art among this people, that thou LORD art seen face to face, and that thy cloud standeth over them, and that thou goest before them, by day time in a pillar of a cloud, and in a pillar of fire by night.

    15Now if thou shalt kill all this people as one man, then the nations which have heard the fame of thee will speak, saying,

    16Because the LORD was not able to bring this people into the land which he sware unto them, therefore he hath slain them in the wilderness.

    17And now, I beseech thee, let the power of my lord be great, according as thou hast spoken, saying,

    18The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

    19Pardon, I beseech thee, the iniquity of this people according unto the greatness of thy mercy, and as thou hast forgiven this people, from Egypt even until now.

    20And the LORD said, I have pardoned according to thy word:

    21But as truly as I live, all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the LORD!

    Notice in verse 20 He said, "According to THY(not MY) word!

    Jonah Ch. 3:
    3So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the LORD. Now Nineveh was an exceeding great city of three days' journey.

    4And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.

    5So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.

    6For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.

    7And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water:

    8But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.

    9Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?

    10And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

    Again, notice verse 10, He repented of the evil because they heeded to what Jonah(or as the oldtimers around her call him, "Jonie") told them from the Lord.

    I truly believe God saw the "shortcomings" of the Old Law, in that none could truly keep them. Jesus then came in are place, took upon Himself, the Sin of the whole world(do you believe Jesus bore all sins on the cross JBH?), and died in our stead. He then became the "alltime" High Priest for us!

    Hebrews Ch. 7:

    25Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

    26For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

    27Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.

    Hebrews Ch. 9:
    11But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

    12Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

    I know you know that Jesus is the High Priest now, I just wanted to throw those verses in there.


    Now, getting to the "nuts n' bolts" of what I am trying to say(LOL). Jesus took upon all the sin of this world(past, present, and future), and took it to the cross, and nailed it to the cross with His flesh(He became a Nail in a sure place). He who knew no sin, became sin for us. So, if He took all sins to the cross, the atonement was an offering for all. Only those who CHOOSE to serve God when He "draws" them, will receive the atonement. There's is a "limited atonement", but not as those who hold to the DoG, believe. The DoG's believe that the atonement is for the "elect" only, whereas I, who believes in "free grace", or "universal atonement", believe the atonement was for ALL, but only those who accept Christ, receive the Atonement. So, IOW, the atonement is "realized" in the born again believer, but was/is offered to all. For example, I tell you I have an apple for you, and you do not want it. Regardless if you take it or not, I had the apple to give to you. You chose not to take it, so therefore you lost out, and I gave it to someone else. That's the way I see the atonement/limited atonement. By saying no, you lose out, eventhough the Grace of God(Jesus' dying on the cross, and being risen the third day), was offered to you, you rejected it. I love you, Bro JBH.

    i am I am's!!

    Willis
     
  15. Skandelon

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    I actually agree with everything you have written so far. And yet, once again, you have failed to engage with my arguments. Why can't they believe in the first place. We both agree the father has to draw them, but what is preventing them from coming to Christ in the first place? Is it their in born "totally depraved" nature that prevents them?

    NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

    It is the fact that they, the Israelites, are being temporarily hardened/blinded by God from the truth. He have given them "eyes of stupor" and "ears that cannot hear." Why? Because they have rebelled for generations and now he is accomplishing redemption through that rebellion as they are the ones who will crucify him. The ONLY way a JEW could come to Christ is if the Father had selected him for that unique and sovereign purpose of being one of the "Remnant of Israel" who were reserved from the Judicial Hardening process so as to be a messenger to the world.

    As I quoted before but you have yet to address: "24 Some were convinced by what he said, but others would not believe.

    But, WHY? Why could they not believe?

    "You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving." 27 For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes.

    Oh, they are hardened/calloused to the truth. That is why they can't believe. But, if they weren't hardened what would they be able to do?

    Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'

    Oh, so if they hadn't become hardened they "might see, hear, understand and believe! Clear and simple. But that is just describing the nature of what ALL men are like from birth, its not really possible for anyone to see, hear, understand and turn is it?

    28 "Therefore I want you to know that God's salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!""

    Oh, the Gentiles weren't being hardened like the Jews, so they CAN listen and be saved? So, that means when God sends the truth of the gospel to them they can and will be drawn to Him whereas the Jews could not. Hmmmm

    Very simple.
     
  16. saturneptune

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    You are quite right, the whole issue is quite simple. The only question is why you constantly come out on the wrong side.

    24 Some were convinced by what he said, but others would not believe.
    How does that verse advance your theory? Some were convinced, but others would not believe because the Lord has chosen His elect.

    You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving." 27 For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes.
    And why is that. Lets see, they are totally depraved as we all are, except for the mercy of the Lord. Without regeneration, there will never be understanding, never be perceiving, and will never hear. The unelect have no other ability but to close their eyes.

    What is it you expect a spiritually dead person to do?

    28 "Therefore I want you to know that God's salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!"
    Same rules apply for Gentiles. The verse does not say all Gentiles will listen. If you are unconvinced of that, look at how many in the US do not ever darken the doors of a church. The verse merely says the Gospel has been spread to the Gentiles. They will react or not react as the Lord chooses.
     

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