" Drawing "

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Rippon, Feb 26, 2007.

  1. Rippon

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    I know this one must have been done a time or two , but here goes again .

    In John 6:44 Jesus said : No one can come to me unless the Father who sent Me draws him , and I will raise him up at the last day .

    The Lord had already said in verse 37 that all that the Father gives Me will come to Me ... And verse 65 deals with the same .

    Isn't verse 44 rather clear ? Draws . The Greek word is elkw . It's found in other verses such as John 18:10 : Then Simon Peter , having a sword , drew it ...

    John 21:11 : Simon Peter went up and dragged up and dragged the net ...

    Acts 21:30 : ... and dragged him out of the temple ...

    Acts 16:19 : ... they seized Paul and silas and dragged them into the marketplace to the authorities .

    James 2:6 : Don't the rich oppress you and drag you into the courts ?

    Kittel's Dictionary of the New Testament defines elkw as to " draw by an irrestible force ." There is no wooing going on . I seem to remember R.C. Sproul talking about this in one of his books . In one of his classes with his mentor John Gerstner this very thing came up . God's drawing is never partial , it is complete .
     
    #1 Rippon, Feb 26, 2007
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  2. whatever

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  3. Helen

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    I think the problem with tying your theology to that verse lies in the fact that you are excluding other passages in order to support Calvinism.

    Please note that in John 3:20-21, there are two types of people mentioned: those who do evil and hate the light and those who live by the truth and come into the light.

    The author to the Hebrews pleaded with them not to harden their hearts, and that means their hearts were not yet hard, but that they actually had a choice about responding to the Lord.

    Remember, a few verses before the ones you are quoting, in John 6:29, Jesus answers a question asked Him with "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

    If live by the truth that you know, and seek after it, God will indeed draw you to Christ. But in presenting only the second half of that, you are ignoring the fact that we are all told to believe on Christ for salvation. If you want salvation, believe. This is the message of the entire New Testament, really. If you live by the truth, then you will want more truth, and Christ identified Himself as The Truth and the Holy Spirit as the Spirit of Truth.

    Putting it all together is not difficult. If the truth is what you are seeking, then God will draw you to the Son and His grace will save you THROUGH your faith.

    Drawing is the second half, in other words. Please don't forget the first half.
     
  4. npetreley

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    So please quote scripture where the same Greek word is translated as "woo" or the equivalent.

    Thanks for pointing that out. It's monergy in a nutshell. They asked what works they could do, and the answer was "The work of God is this..." In other words, there is no work we can do. It is the work of God, not the work of man. And that work (that God does) is to believe on the one He sent.
     
  5. GordonSlocum

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    9. There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.

    who are chosen
    2. according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.


    Every man has been enlightened, God elects on the basis of Foreknowledge of those He see in time believing. End of Discussion John and Jacob are both wrong.
     
    #5 GordonSlocum, Feb 27, 2007
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  6. Rippon

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    No , GS . You did not answer the question . Where in the Bible is wooing mentioned with respect to the drawing of some by the Father to Jesus .
     
  7. GordonSlocum

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    God, Jesus, and The Holy Spirit are One. You must take all the Scripture to undersand the Scripture you are forcing to mean something it does not.

    Are you saying Jesus and God are not the same?

    Are saying that "The Light" is not God?

    The last time I read John 1:1-9 The Word, The Life, The Light was God. Jesus Too.

    The Father Draws absolutely all those He foresaw believe and these are the ones He gives to Jesus and none will be lost.

    (1) God sees sinner man believe (Foreknowledge)
    (2) God's foreknowledge is Absolutely correct and because He knows all that will believe freely He draws them.
     
  8. Rippon

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    I am not dividing the Trinity . I was using the Scripture from John 6:44 . ( Maybe , since you don't recognize it as Scripture -- you should review it sometime :) .

    God's forknowledge concerns certain people which He set His eternal love upon . Your very old Arminian-like reasoning is so 17th century:) The Lord does not have to look into the future to see which ones will come to Him . Since He chose them before the foundation of the world no fortune telling is required . No one can come to the Lord without Divine enablement ( see John 6 your neglected chapter of the Bible :) .
     
    #8 Rippon, Feb 27, 2007
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  9. GordonSlocum

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    The last time I read I Peter it did not say God Elected according to picking this one and damning this one but Elected on the basis of His foreknowledge of those that obeyed the Gospel. You will notice that the verse supports "Whosoever will may come" not pick some and damn others.
     
  10. skypair

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    Draw

    Guys,

    www.Blueletterbible.com defines the Greek word for draw thusly:

    "1) to draw, drag off

    2) metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel"

    The word appears 8 times in the NT. In each, there is a certain element of "against one's will or against inertia dragging." No one has ever maintained that we are drawn of our own will, have they? It has ALWAYS been God's will that "none perish but that all should come to repentance."

    But once we are in His presence and know Him, do you assert that we make an involuntary submission to faith in Him? That we choose Him?

    Helen I like your response best! :thumbs: The rest are "mountains out of molehills!"

    skypair
     
  11. Helen

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    Thank you, skypair. It gets bizarre. For instance, when npetreley makes mash out of Jesus' answer to the people "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." npetreley tried to make out that this was God's work to do. How bizarre is that! God is supposed to believe in Himself because that is HIS work?????

    Jesus' response was to answer the question in ther verse preceeding it: "What must we do to do the works God requires?"

    Jesus' response makes it clear that they are simply being asked to believe in Him. That is the 'work' God requires.

    There is just so far I can go with some of these 'discussion' because allowing Bible to explain Bible and using a little common sense in checking the context seems to be beyond what some are capable of.

    If I seem a little grouchy, I'm sorry. npetreley's response got to me. It was past nonsense into the unbelievable.

    Rippon, your insulting sarcasm to Gordon was also disgusting.
     
  12. skypair

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    Helen,

    Don't let 'em get you down. :1_grouphug: Your theology is the best I've seen on BB - no kidding!

    npeterely apparently believes that God must be in Him before he can do "the works of God" -- so it is quite natural that he would have God doing the work when in fact, God isn't in there until one is saved/born again/regenerated according to one's own belief!

    But such is Calvinism. Nothing they do is done by themselves, even after salvation. Everything is the work of God in them. It's a good perspective IF ONE IS SAVED (though some would dountless call it "false humility"). It's a bad perspective if one thinks that God's belief in Himself is what saves.

    skypair
     
  13. Rippon

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    The "Drawing of the Lord" seems to be a perpetual subject on the BB . I thought it was time to revive this one for your viewing pleasure .
     
  14. belvedere

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    I made this point in a Bible study awhile back, that the word translated "draw" was the same word used for drawing the sword, drawing in the fishing net, etc. Sounds pretty "irresistable". I was told that in those verses (sword, net) that the word means "will come", but in the case of PEOPLE being drawn, it means "may come". It sounded like a very subjective explanation to me, but I know very little about Greek, so I'm certainly in no position to say for sure.
     
  15. ReformedBaptist

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    In reviewing D.A. Carson's book "Exegetical Fallacies" the first fallacy I read about was trying to derive the meaning of a word solely from its etymology. I am going from memory here as I don't have the book in front of me, but we cannot make too much of the meaning of a word based on its root parts. To use an English example, the word "butterfly" certain does not tell us that a "butterfly" is a stick of butter with wings!

    I may have opportunity later this evening to comment on this most worthy subject.
     
  16. Allan

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    Jesus began tell them not to 'work' so hard for the things that have no eternal value but to be more about those which do.

    The People THEN asked what 'work' they must do in order to 'work' or 'do' the work of God. - Literally Godly or God honoring work.

    Jesus then states This is the 'work' of God - or God honoring work, that you believe. The work or act a person can do is not an act of 'doing' something but believing all that God has 'done'.

    They understood exactly what Christ meant (not doing works but believing) because the next question they asked, what will you do that we might believe?
     
  17. reformedbeliever

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    How can those believe who have never heard Allan? This is the problem with synergism. There are those who have never heard the Gospel who are long dead, and many more who will die without hearing the Gospel. Kinda blows your synergy.
     
  18. reformedbeliever

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    This kinda goes against Ephesians 2 doesn't it Allan? Are you reading into this your system of belief? When we test Scripture with Scripture it seems so. We are not born of our will but God.
     
  19. reformedbeliever

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    Is belief an exercise of the will?
     
  20. reformedbeliever

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    In case anyone didn't know.... this is pick on Allan day! :laugh: He is my brother in Christ... so I know he doesn't mind. Actually Allan makes me re-examine my system of belief quite often. :thumbs:
     

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