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" Drawing "

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Rippon, Feb 26, 2007.

  1. Bismarck

    Bismarck New Member

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    Wow, you just gave me an idea! How can I possibly be wrong here??

    Please sit back and watch for a moment — the key word is draw:


    Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus. Then said Jesus unto Peter, 'Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?'
    John 18:10-11

    Jesus "thwarted" or "resisted" Simon Kepha (Peter)'s drawing of the sword. Drawing is resistable.


    And he [Jesus] said unto them, 'Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find'. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes. Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter, 'It is the Lord'. Now when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he girt [his] fisher's coat [unto him], (for he was naked,) and did cast himself into the sea. And the other disciples came in a little ship; (for they were not far from land, but as it were two hundred cubits,) dragging the net with fishes.

    As soon then as they were come to land, they saw a fire of coals there, and fish laid thereon, and bread. Jesus saith unto them, 'Bring of the fish which ye have now caught'. Simon Peter went up, and drew the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken.

    John 21:6-11

    We see from the sequence of events here that (1) at first they could not draw the net (v.6); (2) after recognizing Jesus Christ (v.7) and by his bidding (v.10) they could now draw the net.

    Again, "drawing" is a resistable verb...

    which resistance is overcome by your recognizing Jesus Christ [in your heart / life] and by his authority and your obedience to his words.
     
  2. Bismarck

    Bismarck New Member

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    Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.
    Romans 4:3 (Gen 15:6 LXX)

    (1) Belief is an act of your will

    (2) Being born again — since, by your Belief, righteousness is counted towards you — is an act of YHWH-God's will


    You believe, and accept God into your life... and then God's Holy and Cleansing Spirit comes into your life (proceeding forth from God the Father).

    You opened the door... YHWH-God came in.

    You didn't make God come in, you didn't do what God did once inside... but you did open the door.
     
  3. Bismarck

    Bismarck New Member

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    Is this related?

    Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
    James 2:19
     
  4. Bismarck

    Bismarck New Member

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    In a sense, "works Righteousness"?
     
  5. Bismarck

    Bismarck New Member

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    You repent...

    God regenerates..?
     
  6. Bismarck

    Bismarck New Member

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    You just started with the words "I will draw all to me"...

    and ended with the words "Jesus draws some unto him"...

    ?!

    That must be a rather profound twisting of Scripture & logic.

    But what about "for many are called, but few are chosen."

    And if you call on him as Father who judges impartially according to each one’s deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile
    1 Peter 1:17

    And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
    Rev 20:12

    Your deeds are what you do (active voice). Your doings / deeds => your judgement / doom, acceptance/rejection.

    YHWH-God does not make you do wrong, lest you say YHWH-God is the author of sin and evil.
     
  7. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    My , my . BW is in a venomous mood . Apparently he's not used to the shorthand of "the originals" . I have taken it for granted that most of us know I am referring primarily to the Greek language manuscripts of nearly 2,000 years ago when referencing something in the N.T. Do I really have to spell out the obvious ? -- Well , ok , for the benefit of those with tender sensitivities --- We do not have the original autographs . I never claimed that we did . But certain folks need some elaboration .

    Getting back to the theme of the OP . Yes , John 12:32 emphasizes that Jesus was saying in essence : "I will draw all of mine to Myself ." Who are they ? They are the ones the Father has given Him . ( see John 6:37 , 39, 65 ) . The "all" of John 12:32 does not , and can't mean each and every person who has , is , and shall live . One needs to compare 12:32 with 6:44 ,65 .
     
  8. Bismarck

    Bismarck New Member

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    This is not sound "hermeneutics" (I think that's the word, "interpretation of Scripture").

    "All" is pas (G3956). The best way to interpret what pas means in John 12:32 is to compare it, not to John 6:44,65 where pas does not even appear (!!), but rather to all :) the 1243 verses in the Greek NT where pas does appear.

    Here is the breakdown of how pas was translated by the AV committee:

    AV — all 748, all things 170, every 117, all men 41, whosoever 31, everyone 28, whole 12, all manner of 11, every man 11, no +3756 9, every thing 7, any 7, whatsoever 6, whosoever +3739 +302 3, always +1223 3, daily +2250 2, any thing 2, no +3361 2, not tr 7, misc 26​

    Upon the authority of the AV translation committee, it is quite clear that all means all.

    REPEAT:

    pas (G3956) does not appear in John 6:44, 65.

    Have I been clear?
     
  9. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Clear as mud . Just kidding . I do indeed think that John 12:32 needs to be compared with John 6:44,65 etc . In the 6th chapter it deals with the subject of drawing . All , as in "each and every person" is not in view . Only some are drawn . So , using the analogy of Scripture , 12:32 has to match up with and not contradict 6:44,65 et cetra .

    The English word "all" in the Bible does not always mean every single person who has and shall live on earth . Of course Romans 3:23 is a grand exception . "All who will not be able to make it , please see me after class ." Many times in Scripture and in our lives we do not use the word in an absolute sense . "All who are weak and heavy-laden ..." All is frequently employed as a subset of a larger group .

    O , the AV revisors made a number of blunders also . They were not inspired in the 2 Timothy 3:16 sense . You had said : " Upon the authority of the AV translation committee , it is quite clear that all means all ."
     
    #89 Rippon, Sep 18, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 18, 2007
  10. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    Yes.

    skypair
     
  11. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    That depends on what the meaning of "is" is. :laugh:

    Actually, you are perfectly clear --- the "mole" has come to "spy out our grace" has been discovered and shamed.

    skypair
     
  12. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    So "pas" does not appear in John 6:44 and 65 . ( I never claimed otherwise ) . Therefore , some , not all ( as in each and every ) are drawn to Jesus by the Father . What's the problem ?
     
  13. Bro. Williams

    Bro. Williams New Member

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    Some of us strive to mean what we say and say what we mean. Others claim that knowling calling something what it is not, is the norm, expected and acceptable. Can you trust man who says one thing when he purposely admits he means another thing? Around these here parts we call that deception.
     
  14. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Can't you type in standard English BW ? Only you have had a problem when I spoke of "the original(s)" .
     
  15. Bro. Williams

    Bro. Williams New Member

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    You criticize my typing skills while ignoring your own lying, tsk tsk.

    btw, I work third, had six hours of sleep, typed it the first thing in the morning for me, and am missing 5 keys on my keyboard at the moment due to 1 schnauzer and 1 lab - I also admit my issues with typing to fast and not proofreding before posting and the above named reasons included as well for my issues in grammar. But then again, what does it matter? This is informal, grammar is one thing, intentional deciet is another.

    Also, if only one person has a problem with a brother sinning, then is the problem with the one pointing out the fault, or with all the others ignoring it?
     
  16. Bro. Williams

    Bro. Williams New Member

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    Without using the cotraction, that would read, "Can not you type in standard English BW?" Would that be correct standard English?

    Maybe it is... I don't know.
     
  17. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    "Cannot you type" is indeed standard English . ( Cannot is one word , not two ) . I thought you were a KJO-guy . That construction is very common in your 1789 . But I prefer to use "cotractions" as you put it .
     
  18. Bro. Williams

    Bro. Williams New Member

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    Like I said, I didn't know on that one. It sure looked funny and sounded off. You must understand, I accept everything in the KJV and question everything else, including your typing as well as my own.

    I am aware of "cannot", but in modern English even that is used sparingly. I believe sparingly in mistake, as an English major and I spoke about last year.
     
  19. Bro. Williams

    Bro. Williams New Member

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    BTW, looking into the usage, I assume I could classify it as similar to Dan 2:27
     
  20. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    BW : " I believe sparingly in mistake , as an English major and I spoke about last year ." Huh ?!

    Here's what you said on 7/20 of this year regarding how meticulous you are with your English usage as you were chastising someone . : " Please , take no offense . I am anal on [ sic] these things by habit..."

    Now , let's get back to the subject at-hand . Don't take any unwarranted name-calling detours this time BW . Can I "draw" you back to the topic ? ( Pun intended )
     
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