Drawn by the Spirit

Ray. posted 28 January, 2005 16:42Drawn by the Spirit (Page 4)

I said that and I stand by that as of the first importance. Far from being sick it is healthy and is upheld only by scripture.
Matt 1:21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."
He will. He won't lose one. He will save them. He won't lose any. He will save His people from their sins. Only His people He will save. His people come before saved. Saved does not make them His people. That is what He does for His people. He saves them from their sins.

That makes you a false prophet.
[John 1:29] The Lamb of God, our Lord Jesus removed all sins from all sinners, providing for their redemption.
That makes you a false prophet. Not that I care. The followers of false prophets receive the same. You try to weaken the gospel with this lie but all you do is the will of God to your destruction.
With your false testimony that Jesus has removed all sin providing for redeemption fails because only sin has the wages of death.
That there is a sufficiency in the death of Christ to cover the sins of the human race there is no doubt but it is not for all just His chosen.

The use of the laugh is a glowing testimonial to the depth of your darkness. To use a thing of joy in an effort to degrade another person is to my mind utter darkness. I don't mind for myself but I thought I should highlight it for your sake.
I do not need to search for a warrant to preach the truth and the truth is that Jesus did not die for all sinners.
MK 16:15 He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Have a Christian who is a child explain it to you.
Heap it up man. I thought attacking any person in this way would be a loser a long time ago. When I was a child in fact.

johnp.

 

ILUVLIGHT.posted 28 January, 2005 15:47Drawn by the Spirit (Page 4)

The whole of your first paragraph is meaningless jumble. What do yo accuse me of?
I want you to show quotes and dates and the reasons why in a logical and understandable form.

I fear no judgement. I listen to judgements and accept the truth and disregard the rest. What's the judgement? Spell it out.

You evoke no wonder believe me.

This statement;
But anyway, my logic is sound as far as my beliefs go. This must be a truth to me even if it is not to you. That you must see?
Since I believe that Christ died for elect only then if I tell one that is not elect that Christ died for him then I lie.
That is simple.

Is the construction of you sentences meant only for confusion?
I haven't a clue what you are on about mate. At best it is something to do with your opinion on nothing to do with scripture.
But anyway, my logic is sound as far as my beliefs go. This must be a truth to me even if it is not to you. That you must see?
Since I believe that Christ died for elect only then if I tell one that is not elect that Christ died for him then I lie.
That is simple.
That is a straight forward statement. I can't for the life of me know what you are on about.

Well I did not spot any sarcasm are you sure I should have thought so?

johnp.

 

Johnp,
If you are saying that Jesus death was for the elect only, then you are misunderstanding the whole purpose of Atonement.

Jesus' atonement was for the sin of the world, you cannot interpret that as the sin of the elect only without including the world....NOT, "the elect only in the world". Atonement for sin means all sin in the world. Atonement was not of a select group of individuals, but rather the Overcoming of a principality. Jesus defeated the second death for man because of sin...He paid the mandated penalty in himself thus defeating sin in man.

Jesus did not die for some, excluding all others. His death provided universal atonement for sin, so that ANY, who believe in Him, can have everlasting life because they are no longer condemned to death by sin. Sin has no hold, no power over man, Jesus took it all upon himself and took it to the grave with him. Does that mean that man no longer sins? NO, because man came from "Sinner Stock" man sins, but the wage for that sin need not be death if one but believes in Jesus, for "whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life".

ATONEMENT is UNIVERSAL, FAITH is INDIVIDUAL! Because Atonement is UNIVERSAL, every individual who possesses FAITH gets SAVED.

 

Johnp said, "I never said you did. I asked you the question."</font>[/QUOTE]Your post that did says

You imply that we are in agreement regarding "degrees of punishment in Hell". Which indicates that I posted somewhere that there are degrees of punishment in Hell", a statement that you can agree with. I have not because I do not believe it to be true!

 

Yes I do. I am always telling them because they are so forgetful. They will learn, when Jesus said He died for our sins, the elect that is, He meant that He died for our sins. It's hard to believe. The freedom is complete and completed the moment you are forgiven being born again. Forgiven. Believe that, be it ever so little, and you are born again. The effect in them is instant. The change in appearance and demeanor is marked.</font>[/QUOTE]I presume that you mean then that the definition of world includes ONLY God's elect, because Jesus said that he dies to atone for sin, not for individuals. Oh! you say, but Jesus said he dies for his sheep? Who are Jesus' sheep if not ALL who believe in HIM?

Being born again is not the same as being forgiven! Forgiveness comes after confession of what is in need of forgiveness, but one must believe in the one to whom confession is made, and believing is being born again! Believing spawns confession because once one believes, one becomes convicted of one's sins. It is when one recognizes their sin, that confession of sin is made, and forgiveness is given.

Being Born Again is confessing Belief in Jesus, confessing belief and confessing sins are two different things, but they can and most often do occur at the same time. All sin is not forgiven the instant one becomes born again, but only those up to that point in time. Yes, All sins are atoned, but if one continues to sin, each sin needs confession and forgiveness. Atonement for sin does not prevent man from sinning, it removed the penalty of spiritual death from the sinner. One must acknowledge one's sins to God, in order to have them forgiven.

 

If you were their friend I'm sure you would not have used their sickness as a tool. [Cool]</font>[/QUOTE]Where did I say to use their sickness as a tool? "For lack of knowledge my people perish", God!

 

You still do not understand ATONEMENT for SIN. NNE GOES TO HELL FOR SIN! The PENALTY for SIN has been paid ONCE, FOR ALL! That death penalty has been lifted from man! God does not judge man's eternal fate on the basis of Sin, but on the basis of FAITH ALONE! Why would John, in 1 John 1:8-10, say to believers,

The answer is easy, ONCE forgiven is not sufficient for eternal life. We must continue to acknowledge our sins, and be forgiven, so that our deeds, when judged, do not leave us with nothing but worthless ashes. I am not talking about the "ONCE FORGIVEN" of Calvinism, I am talking about the penalty being paid so that no man faces death because of sin! However, unbelievers will be cast into the lake of fire because they DID NOT believe in the one who does the casting while they were living this natural life! And that includes those who at one time DID believe, but at the time of their natural death LACKED that belief. Read the letters to the 7 churches in the first part of the book of Revelation. There are many instances of "Persevere to the end", and that means retaining, keeping, holding on to that which can be lost!

Unbelief is the absence of belief! Belief is a possession of MAN alone, and if you do not possess it, that is not a sin because belief is not given to you to hold. You possess belief in that for which you have knowledge. Knowledge of God comes through your senses, hearing and seeing, into your mental storage center where your spirit acts upon the knowledge to form personal, individual belief. If you have the knowledge but do not arrive at the conclusion that knowledge indicates you should, then you have the condition of unbelief, and that is not a sin! However, as Jesus says in John 3:18, whoever does not believe, is judged by his own unbelief. The standard that must be met for Salvation is FAITH in JESUS...If you fail to meet that standard, you judge yourself as not meeting that standard, and you are not saved but will be cast into the lake of fire due to your spiritual condition of unbelief.

Exactly what is that promise, and where is it found in scripture?

NO, that is not true, You are mixing apples and oranges in your avoidance of truth. What I offer is an understanding that Calvinism does not seem to contain.

AH YES! But the man is a supposed believer who sins grievously within the "Body of Christ". And so long as the man retains faith in God, his spirit shall be saved on the day of the LORD. That does not mean that he can sin with impunity, because Paul is telling the Corinthian church to IMPUNE the individual by excluding him from the body. Paul is Chastising the Church in Corinth for permitting the individual to remain part of the body while still doing the grievous sin. And the reason is simple, if he can do that, what conduct is not permitted for all others in the Body of Christ, the church? If the sinner stops believing in God while separated from the Body of Christ, his spirit will not be saved on the Day of the LORD! Salvation is THROUGH faith held at the time the spirit separates from the flesh.

 

I am very glad you are so interested in my friends. I'm sure they will send you their greetings soon. I can only reiterate what I said before, The Great Shepherd of the Sheep will lose none of those The Father gave Him. Praise Him! ...because they were once Calvinists? No but once they were forgiven.</font>[/QUOTE]If your friends were to lose their faith in God, unlike Job who retained his all through his trials, they would lose their salvation, just as Job would have lost his salvation because he lost his faith. If Job had once cursed God, he would not have been saved. It was because he did not lose his faith in God that Job is remembered in Scripture as an example for All to follow. Truly Job was an Elect of God, but it was because he retained his FAITH in GOD that he was elect, and not the other way around.

 

I make no such equation whatever. I was using that phraseology for the purpose of pointing out the fallacy that "Faith is a gift of God given by God to "his elect"". Faith is not given by God, but All the reasons to have faith are!

 

I wish I knew what you are saying it sounds fascinating!</font>[/QUOTE]Jesus tells us that "it is spirit that gives life to the flesh, the flesh has nothing to offer". Since it is the human spirit that "quickens the flesh" it is the human spirit that 'controls' the flesh, and thus the spirit that fosters good health of the flesh. When the flesh is in trouble, as in the case of drugs, it is the spirit that either suppresses (protects) the flesh or AIDS the healing of the flesh.

No the human spirit cannot keep the flesh from its natural aging processes, but the spirit can promote more rapid healing. So for your friends, encourage their spirit to cooperate with the treatment of their condition, so that they can heal. Encourage their spirit to trust intensely in Jesus.

You've probably seen the bumper sticker "NO Jesus--No Peace, KNOW Jesus--KNOW PEACE", Knowing Jesus brings peace even in the most stressful of situations.

The bottom line is this: If you, johnp, can help your friends' spirits to be "healed", the doctors can help your friends' flesh to be healed. Sometimes, just praying aloud in their presence is enough to convince them of the power of the divine to work in their lives. A Christian doctor friend often says in church services that he believes that 80% of all healing occurs in the spirit, the rest is of the body. He said that if the patient believes in God, it is easier to treat what ails them because he can talk to them spirit-to-spirit using the auditory faculties. If they do not believe in God, all he has to rely on is the tools at his disposal. Yes, he is a true evangelist too! Because he persuades unbelievers to become believers through his contact with them.

 

Wes.

Or to put it another way. Everybodys' sins have been paid for! Believe in Jesus and He won't send you to Hell for having no sin.
The wages of sin is death.

I can only guess what you mean.
I implied nothing why say I do. Twist away man. I asked you a question and you accuse me of implying.

So there are no degrees in Hell. Answer the scripture. RO 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.

That means that seeing as you do not believe there are different degrees of punishment there was a universal payment made for sin and everybody is in Hell for one thing, unbelief. Unbelief is not a sin and needs no sacrifice. Unbelief is not a sin but a something else that sends one to Hell.
Answer the scripture. Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
So to be a Christian in your way you do not need to repent of anything because Jesus died for all sin. No one need repent because none are considered sinners. As long as you believe in Jesus you need only believe.
Answer the scripture. John 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."

My sins however have been forgiven.

The Lake of burning Fire is no fear to me as it is with you. You only have your faith to rely on, trusting in man, if it fails, as it will, send me a postcard. Wish you were here. If it does not fail your destination remains the same, The Lake of Fire, because it is not your faith God looks for, it is His faith communicated that He looks for. The covering of Jesus and not the fig leaf covering of selfrighteousness.

Jesus tells us that "it is spirit that gives life to the flesh, the flesh has nothing to offer".
Answer the scripture. JN 3:5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, `You must be born again.
You are in opposition to the scripture. This is the second time I've answered this point I do hope you read it this time and not ignore it.
Since it is the human spirit that "quickens the flesh" it is the human spirit that 'controls' the flesh, and thus the spirit that fosters good health of the flesh.
Rom 8:7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.
You oppose the scripture.

Have they invented a gauge to tell how much the spirit heals? Amazingly clever ain't they? What will they think of next?

johnp.

 

Wes.

To be frank I do not care for doctors. I steer clear of them when they are working, especially when I am not well.
MT 23:15 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.
If he believes as you do.

johnp.

 

johnp,

You said,

This is a bigoted statement and should never have beem said about another brother in Christ, whether he is a Calvinist or an Arminian. This is unconscionable and is not becoming to a man of your intellectual understanding.

Some Arminians and Calvinists might not get to Heaven, but then you and I are not the judge. Am I wrong? Not!

 

Hi JohnP;

Meaningless jumble eh! well if you can't understand what I was talking about then it's isn't any wonder you have no understanding of the scriptures either.

Speaking about meaningless jumble what's this Your not quoting me here below.

Better go see your eye doctor because I didn't write this. Talk about not being able to understand.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

Johnp,

Or to put it another way. Everybodys' sins have been paid for! Believe in Jesus and He won't send you to Hell for having no sin. The wages of sin is death.</font>[/QUOTE]That may be your opinion but that is not what I said. Besides, Romans 6 has no authority over John 1:29-31.

One must believe the "forerunner of the Messiah" mustn’t one? So, If the penalty for sin has been taken away from man by the Sacrificial Lamb of God, who is Jesus, God the Son, by what sins is man judged that has the penalty of death?

You OBVIOUSLY and I say emphatically, do not understand the ATONEMENT, when you say things like the wages of sin is death, especially when we all know that Jesus is the Sacrificial Lamb of God who taketh away the sins of the world. Yes, that is what scripture says. How can there be an issue regarding sin when scripture clearly says that the Lamb of God has taken them away? Why don't you understand? Why do you keep yourself bound to someone else's false doctrines when scriptures are so clear on the subject.

You really are in trouble if you cannot find the meaning in what Paul says here. Those who existed and sinned before the law existed are exempt from judgment by the law. Those who came after the law, are under the law, and by sin are they judged by the law. What meaning do you assign to it?

That means that seeing as you do not believe there are different degrees of punishment there was a universal payment made for sin and everybody is in Hell for one thing, unbelief. Unbelief is not a sin and needs no sacrifice. Unbelief is not a sin but a something else that sends one to Hell. Answer the scripture. Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. So to be a Christian in your way you do not need to repent of anything because Jesus died for all sin. No one need repent because none are considered sinners. As long as you believe in Jesus you need only believe. Answer the scripture. John 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."</font>[/QUOTE]It seems you have much more faith in the words of Paul, than you do of those of Jesus, who is God the Son, who said, "whosoever believeth in me shall not perish but have everlasting life. He tells us also in verse 18 of John 3, that whoever has faith in Him IS NOT JUDGED, but those who lack faith are judged by their own unbelief. Those who do not believe are cast into the lake of fire. John 5:24 further clarifies it

Only if they have been confessed! 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and Just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

ILUVLIGHT.

Nice piece of work man, a master of the put down!

I shall rephrash it for you.
I said that anyone preaching a message that faith comes from within is a false prophet and a worker of deceit.
I find that in all things God is at work.
If a person follows a false prophet they will receive the same treatment the false prophet receives.
If a person follows a false prophet it is because God wants that person to follow the false prophet.
The false testimony is that Jersus removed all sin providing for redeemption.
Jesus died for His people only. Anything preached other than this weakens the gospel. Jesus died only for those that were chosen before the creation of the world. That is the gospel message, that Christ died for the sins of the elect. That's the good news but it is only good news to me and those that believe the word of God.
John 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

I said that.

You said that.
Did I make a mistake in saying that you put a laugh at instead of a laugh with? Wrong wasn't I? You put three.

johnp.

 

Ray.

Why is that a bigoted statement. If a man preaches works and someone believes that then they continue Hell bound without a care.

No you are wrong and a hypocrite yourself in calling me a bigot, judgement is a thing you just said is 'unconscionable and is not becoming to a man of your intellectual understanding' ok?

We are to judge and speak as we find. The doctrine I speak against is only death. What you want me to say, how wonderful it is that the sick are deceived into works? 1 Cor 2:15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:

If Wes has a complaint he will complain himself why do you involve yourself at such a speed? A rush to judgement was it?
This faith you have is a filthy rag. You know I believe that and have said it before.

johnp.

 

Wes.

Then you have not made yourself clear have you? If Jesus has paid the penalty for sin and still sends those He paid for to Hell then He must, in your opinion, send people to Hell for no sin. That's is not my opinion but the only conclusion to reach.
I have seen how you use scripture and it comes as no surprise to find that you believe one scripture has authority over another. Scripture has no conflict with itself.

If sin is taken away by the sacrifice of atonement then there is no more sacrifice for sin. Sin has been paid for so it cannot fall on another. Anyone who has had His sins paid for has no sin to pay for. Unpaid for sin is the only way to Hell.

I follow the scripture you follow your own imagination. You should spend some time finding out what atonement means. The wages of sin is death and only sin does this. What's the something else you believe we can go to Hell for?

No one can ever be outside God's law. One receives the punishment according to what one knows. If you know the law you are judged harsher than one that did not. Both get judged by the law but not having heard it mitigates against it. The law has a different effect when it is in a concrete form. Those who did not hear it still had the testimony of their conscience to guild them.

My sins have been forgiven. Repentance is not needed for the forgiveness of sins. Just the turning to God is enough. No remorse is needed and you do not need to put on any airs or graces but just as you are ask for forgiveness and wait on the Lord.
But you say that Jesus has paid the penalty for everyone so everyone is saved. You have to invent another way into Hell, a way that is not by sin because you say Jesus paid the penalty for that even though the scriptures say that the wages of sin is death.
The verse you use has nothing to do with salvation.
Only if they have been confessed! No. If Jesus paid the penalty then the penalty no longer exists. Answer this.
I can't see the thief on the cross straining away trying to remember all his sins. Could you show me where it says this about him?
My sins have been atoned for I am free. The Lake of Fire, you really like saying that don't you, is a place I can never visit? My sins have been paid for by another and do not come up against me.

Paul's words are the words of Jesus. But this is nice! To be accused of being a follower of Paul and not Calvin makes a nice change! In that half of a sentence you prove that you disregard scripture and claim that Paul has not written scripture but just his own words.
My sheep hear my voice. Jesus said that. If you think Paul is not speaking the word of God that will only mean that you do not hear the voice of the Lord. You are in great danger from the Lake.

johnp.

 

Johnp,

If any man could live his life sinless, he would not need a savior! He would indeed be worthy. But no man, save for God the Son, has ever done that! So No man could escape death if it were not for Jesus, who atoned for sin by his own physical death on a cruel Roman cross. Jesus removed the penalty of sin which is death for sinning from ALL Mankind! If the penalty for our sins has been paid by God the Son, we do not face that penalty because our sins are no longer charged against us because they were "Charged to Jesus". Does that mean that we don't sin? No, it means that we don't face death because we do sin! Since we do not face death, we can have everlasting life, but there is a condition that man must meet in order to receive everlasting life, and that is expressed in John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. So, in order to receive everlasting life, man MUST BELIEVE in God the Son! There is nothing that says that man must repent from sinning before one can believe, there is nothing about one being regenerated before one can believe, and there is nothing about a man named CALVIN! ONLY BELIEVE, ONLY BELIEVE, All things are possible (especially our eternal life), ONLY BELIEVE!

So, no man is cast into the lake of fire because of sin! Man is cast into the lake of fire because man possesses no FAITH in GOD! Having no faith is not a sin, but it is a fatal ERROR condition because if having faith, a saving condition, saves you from the second death of the lake of fire, then lacking faith is a one way ticket to the second death of the lake of fire.

Now does that mean we can sin with impunity? NO, God forbid! But we do not die because of our sin because we can confess our sins and be cleansed by God. If we die with sin unforgiven, our deeds shall be judged, and we receive the reward our deeds merit. Just remember that sins are not charged against us because Jesus took them upon himself!

 

Jesus died to ATONE for the sins of the World....the whole world, in all times!