Drinking of alcohol and especially wine

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Old Scholar, May 12, 2009.

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  1. Old Scholar

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    Although a Baptist, I have never been able to understand most Baptist's views on drinking wine. Some churches even write it into their 'rules' for membership in the church.

    I know the Bible teaches us that Pastors should not drink wine or any alcohol beverage at all and that deacons should be able to drink a little but not very much.

    Some Baptist churches don't even use wine in communion and I feel that's a little sacrilegious as Christ certainly drank wine and one of his last statements to His disciples was that he would not drink wine again until He could drink it with them in His kingdom.

    I can find nothing in Scripture to say we shouldn't drink wine unless we occupy a position as cited above. Wine is good for your health, raises your HDL cholesterol and as Paul told Timothy, it is good for your stomach. Most cardiologists will tell you that a glass of red wine a day is good for your heart——so what is the big problem with most Baptist churches and wine?

    Drinking wine or alcohol to excess is certainly wrong but then eating to excess is just as wrong so that means fat people are in the same category as drunks as far as doing something to excess is concerned. I'm guilty of eating to excess and I would like to correct that but I will never be guilty of drinking to excess.

    [​IMG]
     
  2. Allan

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    I'm not even going to deal with the above in relation to alcohal because it has been so many times over. Biblically I agree with a couple of things you said and with many others, biblically, I don't.

    However with regard to 'fat people' being the same catagory as a drunks is a statement made from a lack of knowledge.

    First, an overweight person is not always so because of over eating (in fact many are not).

    Second, please show scripture which states it is a sin to eat 'in excess'.

    Now if you are going to use the term 'gluttony' I would encourage you to look more into what that word entails before making such a claim.
    It is not about 'eating to much' or 'in excess' as this does not properly depict what glutton is speaking to. (also gluttony is not specific only to eating) With respect to eating however - it is action of eating with the intent of hording or keeping it from others and therefore the individual eats all he can. A glutton is someone that is fairly easy to identify just as a drunk is when they are in their environment.

    BTW - Did you know that red grape juice is actaully better for your heart than red wine? And yes, alcohal is good medicinally as well just as Paul stated to Timothy.
     
    #2 Allan, May 12, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: May 12, 2009
  3. gb93433

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    Maybe I am missing something. I have never heard this comment until recently. Can you explain how starving people can be overweight? I have never known anyone to gain weight by not eating. When I look at the pictures of starving people I fail to see any of them who are overweight.
     
  4. Onlybygrace

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    Cheers!!.... hic....
     
  5. Olivencia

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    No New Covenant command against it. Interestingly, God allowed the Israelites to enjoy it (Deuteronomy 14:26).
     
  6. thomas15

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    A lot of believers like to thump their chest and yes for some a glass of wine could be trouble, but I agree Old Scholar with you as far as putting a no alcohol policy in a church's statement of faith.

    If we are unable to fufill our duty as Christian believers because we consume too much wine and when confronted deny it then most likely we don't have to Holy Spirit within us. Yet we don't put statements in our statement of faith mandating an indwelling of same. In summery, I personally don't care for behavorial issues listed in statements of faith, but that is just me.
     
  7. annsni

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    People who eat food are not gluttons. We cannot compare starvation and being overweight - that's ridiculous.

    But one can certainly gain weight due to certain medical issues without being a glutton. I have polycystic ovarian syndrome which is tied to insulin resistance. I make too much insulin and when that happens, any carbohydrate I eat will store as fat in my midsection. Typically people with this issue will have an "apple" shape. Once I started taking a medication to help my body utilize insulin properly, I lost a lot of the weight I was holding on to - 30 lbs. in a matter of 2 months without me changing my eating habits a bit.

    So not everyone who is overweight is that way because of eating 5000 calories a day. Some can gain weight on 1500 calories a day as I did.
     
  8. preachinjesus

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    I couldn't agree more. The Baptist mandated teetotalism is both unScriptural and just uniformed.

    but, as you're getting ready to find out, there are many who disagree with you here.

    I'm not certain how Pastor's get to be a special class here. I don't see that in Scripture. As a pastor I would disagree with that prohibition.

    I'd love to hear of a Baptist church that uses wine in communion. The vast majority don't from my experience.

    Gluttony and being overweight don't necessarily go hand-in-hand. I would suggest that if you keep a consistent diet and regular exercise you will probably maintain a healthly weight and appearance. I would caution us all to remember that not all people can maintain a slim, trim figure nor is that a Scripturally mandated place to be. I'm a pretty atheletic guy and have never struggled with being overweight. That said I have several good friends who do. Two them are just lazy and eat too much. Another friend works out relentlessly to keep off the weight. He has a very maintained diet and still struggles with being overweight. Just saying this probably isn't the best way to approach the issue imho.

    BTW, welcome. I look forward to more interaction.:wavey:
     
  9. annsni

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    I do not recall a passage that says that pastors cannot drink alcohol - can you show that to me?

    We do not feel drinking alcohol is wrong. Getting drunk is wrong. However, because of our ministries and because of our children. My husband has been working in the college ministry at our church and these kids have enough struggle with alcohol that they don't need their pastor drinking to encourage them that it's OK for them to do the same. Additionally, I have teen daughters and I want them to understand that while alcohol is nice (a nice glass of wine with dinner is wonderful), it is not necessary and for this time in their lives, it's best to not partake. So for this time in our lives, we do not drink. I certainly still cook with alcohol, however. Oh - and it's not true that alcohol cooks off - a percentage of it is still left behind even if it is flambeed (75% still retained) or cooked for hours at a low boil (5% still retained).
     
  10. sag38

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    Colonel, if pastors are not supposed to drink wine then why would Paul tell Timothy (a pastor) to drink wine instead of water?
     
    #10 sag38, May 12, 2009
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  11. ~JM~

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    Are liberalism and feminism to blame for the Church rejecting alcohol as sinful ? Have a listen.

    I enjoy scotch and bourbon.
     
  12. Onlybygrace

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    thomas15 said:

    If we are unable to fufill our duty as Christian believers because we consume too much wine and when confronted deny it then most likely we don't have to Holy Spirit within us. Yet we don't put statements in our statement of faith mandating an indwelling of same. In summery, I personally don't care for behavorial issues listed in statements of faith, but that is just me.

    1. There are many reasons why we are unable to fulfill to our duty as Christian believers and all honesty drinking alchohol is perhaps the least of them. What about apathy and indifference, selfishness, spiritual immaturity, etc. Why make a big spectacle of drinking alchohol but overlook those things especially when the Bible is outright against them and the subject of alchohol is debatable.

    I think it is a very superficial view of worldliness to focus on things drinking alchohol, men wearing earings, tattoos and the like. There are anti-God ways of thinking like secularism, syncretism and pragmatism that are eroding our values, marring our distinctiveness and bringing us to a standstill. The bible is clear change comes from the inside and not the outside. We should be addressing the way Christians think not whether they drink alchohol or not if we want to see real Christlikeness!

    2. when confronted deny it then most likely we don't have to Holy Spirit within us.

    That is a pretty biased and harsh generalisation. Lying is not any different to any other sin. A lot of Christians lie at one time or another either by pretending to be more spiritual than they are or a direct lie. Even if someone shakes your hand at the church door and asks if you are ok and you say you are fine when you are not that too is a lie. That does not mean you are not a Christian or do not have the Holy Spirit. The book of first John tells us that if we claim we have not sinned or are without sin we are liars, Yet it still addresses us as believers.
     
  13. annsni

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    Never had bourbon but I used to love scotch. Grew up in an Irish Catholic family where scotch was the drink of choice.
     
  14. corndogggy

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    They all did before 1869, that's when Mr. Welch made his "unfermented sacramental wine". Also starting about that time there was a huge baptist backlash against alcohol, leading to prohibition, and that sentiment lives on today. Prior to this time it just wasn't an issue.
     
    #14 corndogggy, May 12, 2009
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  15. Old Scholar

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    [/COLOR]
    Please notice that I did not use the term gluttony. My statement specifically spoke of those who ate to excess and that is why they are fat. I made no mention of 'all' people who are fat and I certainly know of many who have health problems that cause that condition. So please do not "put words" into my statements that I did not use.

    As far as the Scripture condemning excessive eating, please consider the following:


    1 Peter 4:3 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:

    I'm sure I don't have to define what those mean to you but for the benefit of any reading this who don't know what Peter is writing about:

    Lasciviousness is the same as wantonness, expressed in looks, gesture, or behaviour. Paul speaks further of this in Romans 13:13
    Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.

    I'm sure most know what "lusts" means and "excess of wine" while "revellings" means "luxurious feastings, too frequent, too full or too expensive." On the other hand, "banquetings" means excess in eating or to use your word, 'gluttony.'

    I believe that pretty much covers the Scripture for overeating...


    I believe that nutritionists have shown that red wine is better for you than grape juice but I am sure they will also say that if you have an aversion to wine, then grape juice will help but more of it is required.

    As far as using real wine in communion, I have known of quite a few Baptist churches who use real wine. After all, the command to 'do this in remembrance of me' does not say to substitute for the wine and we all know the cup used at that dinner contained wine.


    By the way for those who mentioned it, I am sure this topic has been covered many tiimes before but if a newcomer to the forum just wanted to read what had been posted previously then there is no chance for discussion or to "put in their two cents." Unfortunately there are some forums on the net that will not discuss a subject but once and tell you to go read the past postings. I don't believe that is a good way to operate a forum if you want new people to participate. Yours in Christ, CR
     
  16. gb93433

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    While one may have a medical condition I cannot think of any reason how one would gain weight by not eating. The intake must exceed the output to gain weight.
     
  17. annsni

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    My output was more than my input and I still gained weight. I was also very sick from the disorder I have.
     
  18. Old Scholar

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    preachinjesus




    Here are Paul's instructions to Timothy about the qualifications for a Bishop and of course we call a Bishop a Pastor:

    1 Timothy 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
    3) Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;


    And for the deacons: 1 Timothy 3:8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;

    I guess one could interpret that as meaning a little wine would be ok but that isn't the way I would interpret it. I believe that "not given to wine" means doesn't like or drink wine. Perhaps I am wrong.

    And I mentioned in another post that I had been to several Baptist churches that used real wine for communion. It isn't as uncommon as many would believe. Christ called it the 'fruit of the vine' and we all know what that is.

    Cheers!
     
  19. Shortandy

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    What about alcohol content? No one has spoken to this yet. Did the wine consumed by Jesus have the same alcohol content as wine today?

    Furthermore are we free to substitute? Can we put Jack, and Jim and Jose all the others in place of wine?

    Just some questions I have.
     
  20. gb93433

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    Then you must have gained weight in water.
     
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