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Early Church Dads And Reformers ...

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Rippon, Jan 15, 2007.

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  1. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    I agree that rewording isn't a good idea...but they were not reworded to far from the mark. I should have known better than to post such things without making sure it is exact (I agree because it can be misleading) but I had HOPED people would research it for themselves and come to their own conclusions.

    I can grant that from the time ??? - to about 320 not much was specifically stated on one side or the other. But from about 300 to 320 onward we do see them. So basically what we are looking for is from Eusebius on-ward. (with the exception of course for Clement of Alexandria since his statement reveals a common thought among an at least equal portion that salvation was for ALL humanity.)

    With regard to Gill. Yes he was a good church historian but one with a decided bent. No one will do a literary work without some bias and he is no exception. Especially in light of the many people we find through out biblical history who didn't hold to the Calvinistic view of limited atonement. But the early church fathers beleived its scope (Atonement) was much wider but its application narrower.
     
    #21 Allan, Jan 16, 2007
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  2. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Just A Beginning

    John Gill was an honest man . He had a sterling reputation . He is the most gifted Baptist scholar in history . For anyone to suggest that he was reworking some quotes in his own words is ________ ( supply the appropriate adjective .

    In his book : " The Cause Of God And Truth " ( a must buy for any Christian ) he devotes 95 pages to quotations of the Church Fathers . The print is tiny and the pages have two columns . The last 12 pages he summarizes his conclusions . In addition to the English translation , he quotes their original language -- sometimes Latin and sometimes Greek . ( I'll leave that out. :)

    I will only begin here to cite only brief extracts from his first chapter " Of Predestination " .

    Clemens Romanus ( A.D.69) : ... God , not willing , as the apostle Peter says , that any of his beloved ones should perish , but that all of them should come to repentance , fixed it by an unchangeable decree , that they should come to repentance ... ( p. 224 )

    Justin ( A.D. 150 ) : [ He is disputing with Trypho the Jew ] ... God , out of all nations took your nation to himself , a nation unprofitable , disobedient , and unfaithful ; thereby pointing out those that are chosen out of every nation to obey his will , by Christ , whom also he calls Jacob , and names Israel ... In all these discourses I have brought all my proofs out of your holy and prophetic writings , hoping that some of you may be found of the number which through the grace that comes from the Lord of Sabaoth , is left or reserved to everlasting salvation . (p.225)

    Irenaeus ( A.D. 180) : Hence , having completed the number which he before determined with himself , all those who are written , or ordained unto life, shall rise again ... (p.227)

    the tower of election being everywhere exalted and glorious . ( p.228 )

    Tertullian (A.D.200 ) : ... That the elect may be manifested , that the reprobate may be detected ... there can be no election without reprobation .
     
  3. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Continuing

    Origenus Alexandrinus ( A.D. 230 ) : [ Commenting on Matt. 24:30 ] ... all that are loved by God the Father , and preserved in Christ Jesus . (p.230)

    ... to him that is foreknown and preordained to believe ... (p.231)

    ... their election does not arise from works , but from the purpose of God , from the will of him that calleth ; the grace of the promise is not fulfilled in the children of the flesh , but in the children of God ; that is , such , who likewise , as they , may be chosen by the purpose of God , and adopted for sons . (p.231 )

    Novatianus ( A.D. 250 ) : ... he is said to be glorious in predestination , and predestination was before the foundation of the world , the order must be kept , and before him there will be a large number of men appointed to glory .

    Basilius Caesariensis ( A.D.370) : Take care , how thou sayest this thing was done by chance , and this comes of its own accord ; nothing is unordained , nothing undetermined , nothing is done in vain , nothing is done rashly .

    [ Regarding John 10:16 ] ... the Lord is speaking of them who from among the Gentiles , are predestined unto salvation ... who , from among the Gentiles are predestined to salvation ; that is , the church in which the true worshippers worship in spirit and in truth ... we are the nation , of whom the Lord is our God ; we are the people whom he has chosen for an inheritance for himself ; a nation truly , because we are gathered out of many nations : a people verily , because we are called in the room of a people cast away , and because many are called , and few are chosen ; he calls not him that is called , but him that is chosen , blessed ; blessed therefore is he whom he he hath chosen . ( All Basilius quotes are from page 235 )
     
  4. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    I don't dispute that Mr. Gill is coping down their thoughts from something they said. It is the context of their statments I want to see. But instead you tell us what John Gill said they said. (this is hear say and not study for those who were not apart of Mr. Gills work) How about showing us where THOSE poeple actually said it. Or should we just take your and His words for it? At least I gave you places where the actaul writer stated what they said and in the context they said it when it was questioned by Jarthor01. And I appreciated his questioning questioning it because he actaully went and looked for it himself.

    And it was as I said in the first. What I gave was so others can see for themselves. Give us where these comments are stated.
     
  5. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Allan , Gill's quotations are not hearsay . You owe it to yourself to buy his book for yourself . You may come away with a whole new point of view .

    At the bottom of each page in his book : " The Cause Of God And Truth " he makes the appropriate citations . However the print is even smaller than the size within the regular text . A lot of his documentation is in Latin . I am simply giving the gist of some Calvinistic statements from many Church Fathers . It happens to run counter to the contentions of your boys . I know that doesn't sit well with you , but ...
     
  6. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    Rippon YOU NEED TO READ.
    I was stating that us taking his word for it is hear-say.
    In other words you just want everyone to take his and your word for it, right? That latin has been translated and can be found through the internet. Thankfully I have most of the Early Church fathers at home on a CD and those I don't have I either find on the internet or call my old school and connect to their digital library (SEBTS)
    If you will not put the citations up then shut this thread down because there is no point in interaction. The problem is this "gist". When you set this thread up it was to contend what I placed on here concerning the early church fathers. This gist now has a spesific form to which we can now do a better investigation concerning the real veiws of early church fathers and the Atonement of Christ was made for ALL man but (as we know) it is only applied to those of faith. Did they hold to this or not... Well I have it on good authority, they did. (that authority is their own words in context)

    The truth sits very well with me, but it is only the truth that does. :smilewinkgrin:
     
    #26 Allan, Jan 18, 2007
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  7. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    My bad... The one I posted here didn't have the references. So here it is:
     
    #27 Allan, Jan 19, 2007
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  8. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Continuing Under The Head Of Predestination

    Gregorius Nazianzenzenus ( A.Ad. 370) : God does not take pleasure in the multitude ; thou numberest myriadfs , but God , those that are to be saved ; thou the unmeasurable dust ; but the vessels of election . ( p.236)

    Hilarius Diaconus ( A. D. 380 ) : For unbelievers we must not very much grieve , because they are not predestined unto life ; for the prescience of God has , of old , decreed , that they are not to be saved . ( p. 237)

    Ambrosius Mediolanensis ( A.D. 380) : ... all men can hear , yet all cannot perceive with their ears , only the elect of God : therefore the Saviour says , He that hath ears to hear -- all men have not those ears .(pgs.237,238)

    Hieronymus ( A.D.390) : ... for the vessels of mercy are not only the people of the Gentiles , but likewise those those among the Jews who would believe , and are made one people of believers ; hence it appears , that , not nations are chosen , but the wills of men . (p.239)

    Whiles he was yet in Rebecca's womb , he supplanted his brother Essau , not truly by his own strength , but by the mercy of God , who knows and loves those whom he hath predestined .(p.240)
     
  9. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    Are you citing pages from Gills book??

    If so, please post WHERE they actually are, as in where can I go to see their actual writtings.
     
  10. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    You actually quoted someone who is not in line with your opinions.

    Prscience is looking forward to see what will be. This is actually a standard Arminian view. And All the Non-Cals agree with it. God knows who will be saved and those who will not is because they choose not to accept the truth God has revealed. So we should not very much grieve for they have chosen eternal seperation from God.

    But the Name I must admit fits this accidental incertion, for it was 'Hilarius'. :laugh:
     
  11. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    I would have to see the context of this quote because it appears to also correspond to the Non-Cal veiw.

    I say that because he states at the end that (apparently) God chooses according to the will of men and not in a national sense.
     
  12. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    One last thing, ALL the verses that I quote concern Early Church Fathers and their (consistant) view with Unlimited Atonement.

    You are beginning to go off into election and other fields and that have nothing to do with what you started off wanting to refute.
     
  13. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    I had said that I was going to quote some early Church Fathers who had Calvinistic sentiments . In the early years ( before P&A went at it ) it was not a controverted point . Therefore some of their statements are not as exacting as could be wished . But then again , ( as I pointed out earlier ) the matter of the Trinity and the two natures of Christ were not definitively hashed-out in the early years either . It takes controversy to hammer-out the biblical basis of doctrines .

    Oh , Hieronymus was saying that God doesn't choose nations for salvation -- but subdues the wills of individuals .
     
    #33 Rippon, Jan 23, 2007
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  14. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    Mind showing where this is found.

    BTW- Election is NOT a Calvinistic sentiment as any bible believing student of the word agrees it is most assuradly there.

    Atonement isn't Calvinistic as any bible believing student of the word agrees it is most assuradly there.

    Depravity isn't Calvinistic as any bible believing student of the word agrees it is most assuradly there.

    Perseverence if the saints isn't Calvinistic as any bible believing student of the word agrees it is most assuradly there.

    Grace also isn't Calvinistic as any bible believing student of the word agrees it is most assuradly there.


    So if you are going to quote them it must be in the defining context of the Calvinistic view. However YOU set up this thread against that which I posted and IT was against early church father and continuing fathers held to unlimited atonement. with regard to the early church fathers hold to your view is without question a great assumption concerning many of their writing that imply and at time state the direct opposite but, like you said, there isn't ENOUGH information to establish a definate established view of those views.
     
  15. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Continuing In Gill's Book ...

    ... citing Early Church Fathers . Chapter 2 : Of Redemption .

    Origines Alexandrinus ( A.D.230 ) : ... Christ being crucified for the world that believes ... (p.246)

    Christ took upon him the sins of the people of those that believe in him . (p.247)

    [ Regarding Matt. 20:21] And to give his life a ransom for many --- for the many that believed on him . (p.247)

    Cyprian ( A.D. 250) : this is our God ; that is not the God of all , but of the faithful and believers . ( p.247,248)

    Eusebius Pamphilus Caesariensis ( A.D. 330) : to them only who are taken by Christ out of all nations , can the blessing made to Abraham concerning all nations agree . (p.250)

    Mararius Egyptius ( A.D.350) : He shall remain in the sight of God forever , having already taken all whom he hath redeemed to be kings of heaven , and co-heirs of eternity , delivering them as the kingdom to God the Father . ( p. 253,254 )

    Basilius Caesariensis ( A.D. 370) : God is not the God of all , but of them who are joined to him in love , as the God of abraham , the God of Isaac , and the God of Jacob ; for if he was the God of all , he would have given them a testimony as something very excellent . (p. 254)

    Cyrillus Hierosolymitanus ( A.D. 370) :You have , the twelve apostles witnesses of the cross , and the habitable earth , and the world of men that believe in him was crucified . ( p.255, 256 )

    the church of the whole world ( p. 256 )

    Gregorius Nazianenus ( A.D. 370) : thy anger is stirred up against the sheep of thy pasture ; remember thy congregation which thou hast possessed from the beginning , which thou hast purchased by the sufferings of thine only begotten Word . (p.256)

    We speak concerning the church for whom Christ died . ( p.256 )
     
  16. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    I have little to no time anymore so I appologize for not responding sooner.

    **sigh** You just don't get it do you Rippon.

    I don't care what Gill says they say and nor should anyone else for that matter. I want to see where Gill got his information. I look at what the men in question themselves state in THEIR OWN WRITINGS. For all I know (though I do doubt) is that Gill is quoting what another man was said to be quoting (which could be a quote from another mans supposed quote). I don't want hear say (one man saying what one man said) I want to know where Gill got his information with regard to each statement from each author. You could afford the same courtisy that I gave when I did this all others (including you) to be able to look for themselves at the early church fathers writtings to see for themselves what was actaully stated. I did this approximately 9 posts back. If nothing else it will get people to not only find things for themselves and not take someone elses word for it (that is a sad faith indeed) but that they might research of their own accord and come to their own conclusions in the matter by seeing how others veiwed certain things in the early churches.

    Anyway, You have not dispoved that any of the quotes I have placed with regard to the View of Unlimited Atonement held by the vast majority of Early Church Fathers can not be denied. That was the whole intent of this thread when it began was it not?

    Your studies in this are coming up very shallow (This is not ment to be derogitive so please don't take it that way). Your previous posts of Gill concerning 'Redemption' DO NOT disprove in ANY WAY Unlimited Atonement. All Non-Cals agree the atonement is applied to those who believe. And agree as well that God is not the God of all men but specifically to those who have believed. Maybe you beginning to see the light :)
     
    #36 Allan, Jan 28, 2007
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  17. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    Just to show you some differences:
    This is what I mean; These show the redeption is only applied to those who believe but Gills quotes are not about the extent of atonement, just the Redeeming aspect to whom has received it. Non-Cals agree that those Redeemed are done so because of Christs shedding of blood and death as God the Father poured out all His wrath on Christ Jesus.

    My quotes are to the extent of the Atonement. This is what you will have a hard time extracting beyond the Unlimited Atonement view. But I will say that what was offered to the world is limited only to the elect. Is this not the parallel to your Common grace (offered to the world) as opposed to effectuous (sp?) grace (only to the elect). If God did not make atonement available for the would then that which God would offer in common grace is either deciet or an out right lie to them. Agreed?
     
    #37 Allan, Jan 28, 2007
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  18. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    I don't know Allan , statements like the following lead me to believe many of the Church Fathers were indeed Pauline in their convictions .

    preordained to believe

    vessels of election

    loves those whom He hath predestined

    unbelievers are not predestined unto life

    etc. , etc. , etc.

    When Gregory of Nazianzen said " the congregation which thou hast possessed from the beginning" -- I can't understand the construction which you place on his writings . He is speaking of the sheep for whom Christ died .

    The same applies to Cryil of Jerusalem . When you see the words " whole world " its like you make a bee-line to your idea that he must be referring to each and everyone who has , is , and shall live . But he is referencing the world of the elect .

    You commented on "your common grace" . I do not believe in common grace . Grace refers only to Christ's work of salvation only . The rain and sunshine that fall on the saved and wicked alike is not biblical grace .

    Do you believe that any of Christ's blood was wasted ? I don't . He died specifically for the ones He determined to save and no one else . So when you try and differentiate between the extent of the atonement and "just the redeeming aspect" I don't follow . He atoned ,for the sins -- that is redeemed some of the human race --- the elect . The presentation of the gospel has been given to a minority of all people throughout history . Most have never heard the gospel . I object to the use of the word "offer" . It causes much confusion . When that word was used in the in the Council of Dort by Reformed men it did not have the modern connotation attached to it .
     
  19. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    None of your sectioned quotes ever makes mention of this. Which one is that?
    And BTW - The Non-Cals are Pauline in their doctrine just as the Calvinists are, and it is has never been proven otherwise. :smilewinkgrin:
    As I stated, these do not hold only to the relm of Calvinistic thought. These are the same terms and wordings used by the Non-Cals as well. However, once again I do not see any mention of your last parsed quote (loves those whom He hath predestined) originated. Did I miss that one too??

    Again, this one is not in your notable quotes. WHere are you getting these??

    You have to look up that actual writing to see the context of that passage. As I stated below it; it can be found: 23 Oratoria 2 in Pasch., i.e., Passover; . It is not my costruct but exactly what he states. The 'whole world' is just that, the whole of mankind. But you still have not stated what documents your quotes originate from that I may see their contexts.

    Nothing in his writtings EVER insinuates such. Again, you can look back at what he actually wrote and see the context to better grasp that we he states the 'whole world' that is exactly what he ment, ALL of mankind. BTW - again, where did this quote you gave from Gill originate?

    THANK YOU!! It is about time someone other than me said that.

    To the embolded - Have you ever studied the sacrifice of atonement? I'm sure you most likely have, but what most people skin over it a very important part of that atonement. Only a PORTION of the blood as a whole was used (applied to the horns - sybolizings Gods power to save through the blood). But what is over looked is what the priests did with the rest of the blood that was given but not used or applied. Scripture states it was poured out at the base of the alter. It was literally trampled under foot. Now if you look that interesting phrase (...trampled or [KJV] trodden under foot) you will find it in Hebrews speaking about Christs sacrifice:
    I'm not going to do the whole study of it because that is not what we are speaking of anyway... I just got caught up on a rabbit trail.
     
  20. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Predestined unto salvation

    preordained to believe

    Both of the above are from Origenus Alexandrinus in post #23

    vessels of election - Gregory of Nazianzen in post #1

    loves those whom he hath predestined --Hieronymus in post #28

    we are the people whom He hath chosen for an inheritance for Himself -- Basil , in post #2

    Unbelievers ... God has , of old , decreed , that they are not to be saved -- Hilarius Diaconus , in post #28

    Back to the subject of Gregory of Nazianzen . He was the one who said " the congregation which thou hast purchased from the beginning " . How can his statement be so construed that that phrase means everyone was purchased ? It is specifically referring to the sheep of His fold that Christ bought with His own blood . No one outside the church is included .

    Dr. William Cunningham wrote a book called " Historical Theology " . In the 7th chapter about the church of the 1st 2 centuries . Section 1 concerns the Doctrines of Grace .

    ... it will scarcely be disputed that the testimony of the early primitive church is as favourable to the Calvinistic pecularities , as they are often called , of predestination and perseverance , as to any of the other doctrines commonly designated ... (p.179)

    He who sees Augustinian or Calvinistic doctrines clearly and explicitly taught in the Bible , will have no difficulty in seeing also plain traces of them at least in the works of the apostolic fathers ; and he who can pervert the statements of Scripture into an anti-Calvinistic sense , may , by the same process , and with equal ease , distort the apostolic fathers .(p.180)
     
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