Early NT MSS Discovered...

Interestingly enough, in the days of Confucious most Chinese worshipped a monotheistic God named Shang Ti. Confucious himself called Shant Ti by the name Tien, which means "Heaven." The worship included sacrifices quite similar to those of Judaism, so there may have been an historical connection.

An even more interesting fact is that the Chinese character for "righteousness" (used also in Japanese) developed historically during China's monotheistic period, is composed of two other characters (radicals), the one for "sheep" which is placed over the one for "I". So righteousness to the worshippers of Shang Ti was a sheep over me, or between Heaven and me! This character is used in both the Chinese and Japanese Bibles for the word righteousness.

Concerning the philosophical schools of China and resemblence to the early churches, a major differences is that the Chinese schools did not allow women and thus were not for families, while the building blocks of Christ's church are complete families. :type:

 

WOW! Guess, I never quite thought of it that way!

 

The offer is always here lads . I enjoy seeing jaws drop when folks see the mss at the Chester Beatty .

It's free, but don't come on Monday. Its closed .

 

You don't really know what you are talking about. Constantine made the Eddict of Milan which prevented christians from being persecuted or property being confiscated. Constatine became a "christian" and the faith became vogue. Because of Constantine we have one of the greatest eccuminical councils which put the trinity in proper theological thought and did away with the Heresy of Arius. Because of Constantine christianity had a "safe haven" in Europe from which missionaries were to travel all over Europe and evangelize the continent which saved all literature including the bible because of the Irish Monestaries that painstakenly copied all scripture and ancient western writings. The fact that Rome became Christian also delayed the destruction of Rome through Leo the Great. The fact that you are a Christian goes all the way back to Constantine (though ultimately God did it). Islam dominated the East not because of christians being in league with the Empire but because converted nomadic warriors were given a mandate to convert people by force. In fact, if Constantine didn't make christianity a vogue religion of his day the next Empire would not have existed to stem the flow of Islam into Europe (The Byzantines). So before you make wild assertions read some history.

 

True Christianity has never been in vogue, before nor after Constantine, the Great One. The church which he married to the Empire of Rome was so apostasized that he had little difficulty paganizing their faith(?) They remain such through the past 1600 years, even though they have ruled the world and written their own version of history.

The churches that Jesus has been building for nearly 2000 years was a separate stream from the beginning and remains so. Real New Testament Churches have always regarded the Holy See as apostate as well as her reformed daughters. NT Churches have been persecuted in every generation. Many true followers of Jesus have been burned, hanged, drowned and sawn assunder refusing to bow to Rome--killed by Christians(?)

Selah,

Bro. James

 

The word John refers to is quite old, common enough in the classics with the meaning of right or righteousness. This character is a good talking point with Chinese. But in modern China more and more don't recognize the traditional character. It has been replaced by a simplified one that bears no resemblance to the goat/me combination. Yet most Chinese are interested in in their culture and characters in particular. John, have you or other Japanese ever used this as an evangelism tool? I have a good friend in China who was led to the Lord by another Chinese who used this character among others, pointing to its relation to a common ancient connection with the one true God. It's hard for some to swallow but it's a good talking point at least!

 

Yes, I have used this as an evangelism tool, as have others I know. Another interesting one is "ship," with three radicals: mouth (for people), eight, and boat. Noah and the ark, of course!

 

I'm not sure I should respond to your assertions because I don't know if you know history (christian) or not. The First thing I have to say is that Jesus was never building Churches but his Church (invisible or not). When you say that the "real new testiment churches have always regarded the Holy See as apostate" I wonder what you're talking bout. The Eastern Orthodox churches? The Coptic Churches? Some dude living on the Rhine? Do you even know when the Bishop of Rome started claiming to be the Holy See? Do you know what Holy See means? Do you know how different the church was in 100 AD and 1000 AD? Some of what you're saying sound ludicrous. I'm not supporting the Pope but speaking about history (actual not fabricated).
Now the last part of what you said is true "Many true followers of Jesus have been burned, hanged, drowned and sawn assunder refusing to bow to Rome--"
But your insinuation is that there are no true christians that considered themselves catholic for 1600 years. (maybe the true church was in stasis for 1600 years!:laugh: ) I find that nonsense! If not for the Church in Rome Europe would have remained without Jesus and scriptures. Even Martin Luther was a trained Catholic Priest or Erasimus who is primarily responsible for the text that the KJB was translated from was a Catholic as well. However, I can refer you to history but I have a feeling facts won't matter to you.

 

Actual history and fabricated history--an interesting phenomenon. In an attempt to authenticate the papacy, the holy see has fabricated a list of popes from the 4th century back to Peter the Apostle. The holy see either has the authority given in Mt.16:18 and 28:20 or it does not. If it does, anyone who does not bow to Rome is an apostate and without authority. If it does not, the majority of so called Christianity today has usurped authority which is none at all. Wake up and smell the coffee.

That which is in the Vatican today is usurped since Vatican II, according to a number of Catholics(the more faithful)? It is a fairly easy task to show the present paganistic practices of anything called Catholic, Orthodox, Coptic, etc.,can be connected to the 4th century and Constantine the Great. This is a glitch not found in the Catholic Encyclopaedia for sure. Connie was a pagan. That which he married to the Roman Empire was surely paganized from birth and remains so. Just because they ruled the world for many centuries does not make their faith and practice scriptural, their history as well. We ought to obey God rather than men.

We are talking about religious world views/paradigms which cannot be reconciled. They all cannot be true--they could all be false. Search the scripture--the only dependable source.

I probably do not know much history. Learned to read in "Dick and Jane". Moved on to biographies and autobiographies at age 8. Read a lot of stuff in the past 55 years. Taught Church History several years--to adults.

Two scriptures that keep me going: "I will never leave or forsake you", and "You shall know The Truth and The Truth shall make you free"--all written to the followers of Jesus. There are millions of Christian martyrs who never had anything to do with Rome nor the daughters of Rome. In fact, they regarded the papacy as antichrist.

Ludicrous? Not really. There were only eight souls onboard the Ark of Noah when God closed the door. Then came the cataclysm which turned the world inside out. That is another bit of history which is scoffed at by many. The evidence of a worldwide flood is nearly everywhere.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

Actual history: People migrated to Europe from Asia
Fabricated history: Arians were decended from Space Aliens that settled Atlantis breeded with a few humans and are superior to every other tribe. Something Nazi German was trying to get everyone to believe. Yes interesting Phenomenon.

If the Catholics are correct this would be true. Yes. However, the catholics today have granted that protestants could be saved because of their ignorance but the founding fathers off all protestants would be apostate.

Constantine was pegan probably beleived that Jesus was the sun god. In the end he was baptised by follower of Arius. Though I believe the rest of your statement with regard to the Orthodox and Copts would have something to say against your accusations. What historical source documents lead you to believe that Constantine incorporated pegan rituals into christian churches? He called to gether the Nicean council for the church leaders to work it out though he was in favor of Arius. The church council and leaders went against both Arius and Constantine with regard to this doctine. Would you then say the doctrine of the trinity is fabricated by Constantine? At that time, 325 AD, the churches were more unified then you seem to think. Keep in mind it is these very same catholics that have brought the bible to use 1683 years later. KJB is translated from greek text translated by Erasimus who happen to translated missing text back from the Latin Vulgate (Catholic translation) into greek.

I would venture that there are many christians who had a lot to do with Rome.

You don't really start getting a whole bunch of that until the 1500's. Have you read any of the early church writings before Constantine? You've indicated you have interest in history so have you. Like Justin Martyr, Athenasius, the Didache?

 

I was just revewing what I wrote. I didn't mean I agree with you about pagan rituals or about the Orthodox and Copts. I meant that I agree with that we should listen to God rather than men. And that the Orthodox and Copts would have something to say about your accusations.

 

Constantine the Great said he had a vision: in hoc signo vinces--the sign being the so-called Christian cross. This sign of the cross was placed on the battle flags and the shields of the infantry at the command of Constantine. They won their next battle. A new pagan religion is foisted on already pagan Rome. The symbol, sign of a cross if you will, is also pagan. Now what? New Testament churches did not use such symbols, still don't. Re: the connection between crosses, and the Egyptian Ankh which is found in Egyptian hieroglyphics(probably a sic). This is all pagan. Real Christians do not use such symbols.

Catholicism, Greek Orthodox, Russian, Coptic etc, etc, all can be traced back to Constantine the Great who moved his government and his religion to Constantinople. Now you have the East and West battling for supremacy. All of this has all the trappings of paganism: priests between man and God, salvation by works, icons, transubstatiation, saint worship, dozens of different crosses, baptismal regeneration, and more...ad infinitum--all pagan.

Has it changed? Yes. Has it reformed? Yes. Is it still pagan? Yes. Now what?

I am not making accusations. Everyone is free to worship whatever and whomever they choose. I am simply pointing out some things which are glaring from the pages of secular history and the Word of God.

Re: Mt. 7:21-23, "Not ever one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in they name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you; depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

To say there was no real consensus about truth before 325 A.D., is to say that the Lord and the Holy Spirit could not establish and maintain New Testament Churches for two hundred years when a pagan roman emperor got it right. I do not buy that.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

The first part of your post is in error. The "cross" that the soldiers placed on their shields was a Chi Rho cross. Two letters from the Name of Christ: Chi - X and Rho - P. Or mistakenly known as the Pax Cross You can see it on a Labarum. What you're probably thinking is a Rho Tau Cross or a Staurogram which is very much like an Ankh which was not used by his soldiers as recorded by Eusebius.

As far as symbolism I've seen the catacombs in Rome and real christians who were burned at the steak, fed to the wild beast in the Collusium, etc... ones that you can read about in Fox's Book of Martyrs used symbols before Constantine! The earliest church finds in Isreal and Jordan showed the use of Symbolism including tiled mosaics. The Didache shows a use of a liturgy very early in christian thought.

Faith by works is misunderstood because that is not what the Orthodox, Catholics, or Copts believe. They believe faith leads to salvation and works maintain that faith. We believe that works are a natural result of faith. In both cases works is important. A christian lacking works we would say has no faith as it says in James.

You claim everything they do is pagan and this is not so. You would be suprised by the Judaic influences on those denominations. I wonder which thing you think they do is pagan? You mention transubstantiation however it is only the Catholics that believe this. And this definition of the Eucharist being the body and blood was in responce to the Reformation. Orthodox don't try to explain it. Both believe the elements contain the real presence of Jesus in them. The earliest writings of the Church outside of the NT states that they believed this way before Constantine. I refer you to Clement, Ignatius of Antioch (70-130 AD), Justin Martyr. You can't lay that at Constantines feet! You have to wonder what Paul meant when he spoke to the Corinthians about not taking the Lords supper unworthly because some have become sick and even fallen asleep? Why kill people if it is just a symbol?

Your very last statement I can agree with. My point exactly there was consensus! Constantine had nothing to do with it from them. he did bring about the end of serious christian persecution in ancient Rome.

 

The point about the "cross" being pagan still stands whether it is from chi rho, Cairo, or pi rho. The angles involved do not change the fact that all such things are pagan. The scripture plainly teaches that we are not to make any sort of graven image for worship. Israel had the same problem as we: they saw the power of God lead them out of Egypt and still made a golden calf to worship not long after they left. There is that Cairo factor again. They had been living among pagan idolators for 400 years. The golden calf bunch did not make it to the promised land--nor did Moses, an interesting study.

The fact that symbols were used long before Constantine supports the fact that Constantine and the Cairo guys had a lot in common and little to compromise. Constantine was pagan all his life--even to his deathbed when he was baptized, not clear by whom. The point is he thought there was something sacrosanct about baptism in terms of salvation. So, he waited until the end to get all his sins washed away--a current teaching among pedobaptists, that is baptism washes away sin. Wrong answer.

There are only two, perhaps three symbols taught in New Testament Churches: Baptism, Lord's Supper and Footwashing. None of them have any redemptive qualities.

Faith by works? No, salvation by works. I was born and partially raised in Catholicism. I have been brainwashed in parochial schools and catechism classes. Then I met Jesus. He changed my life.

How much pagan does it take to make one all pagan? A little leaven leavens the whole lump.

Why do we have to go outside the scripture to prove a point. The "holy fathers" had many doctrine problems. The schisms came early. The Holy Spirit has removed His candlestick from many churches. Some of them never had a candlestick. They have conformed to the world--for the sake of filthy lucre.

"It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God.
Judgement must begin at the house of God."

I believe we are on completely different paradigms.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

This is true.

We both have this in common.

I get your meaning but I think a better example would be the gold serpent that everyone had to look at to be saved. Would you do away with pictural representations of Jesus on peoples walls as well? That in effect is all symbolism is crosses, icons (remember the Iconoclast and Iconodule debate?), drawings on catacombs. The Chi Rho Cross is a combiniation of the letters of Christ name how is that pagan? Because it is a symbol? My point is that Constantine, though made a significant difference on christianity, was not soley responsible for all the practices that you mention. I don't disagree that he was pagan but I believe God used him to stem persecution and christianize Europe. I tend to think you're more closely thinking along the same lines as Dan Brown and it isn't entirely correct. Keep in mind most catholics even those brought up as such have no or little understanding of their own faith. I have a problem on this issue because I find myself indefense of them and am not one though I have a good understanding of what they actually teach and believe and not based on hearsay. I like history and read lots of it. I wonder since you have a problem with Constantine if you reject the first 7 eccuminical councils which orthodox and protestants agree with? Do you reject the Nicean council and if you do, do you reject the trinity?

 

This thread is seriously off the original track. This will be my last post on this thread.

Scriptures which answer some of the questions: "God is a Spirit; they that worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth." "God does not dwell in temples made with hands..."

Constantine may have helped a nominal "christian group" which was already seriously paganized, get a religious foothold in the Roman Empire. His mother even gave them some property--now known as the Vatican. It is a sovereign entity. They own a lot of other stuff too--yet they take vows of poverty--a religion of contradictions.

Roman persecution may have diminished--this does not authenticate anyone--the scripture says that all those who live godly in Christ, Jesus will suffer persecution. If one is a real Christian, one will be persecuted. Jesus told us it would come and it did. All of the Apostles probably died a violent death. The real Christian has no reward in this world but rather in the next.

I have seen the iconic art work, dead men's bones, and other idolatry which adorns a Greek Orthodox temple. I have also seen many of the major cathedrals of the world--all filled with things forbidden by scripture. Maybe that is why they killed those who would translate the scripture into the common vernacular. Someone does not want the Truth to be known.

Re: Catholic Church Councils starting with Nicea, called by Constantine, I cannot endorse any of them. Many of my spiritual forefathers were anathemized in these councils.
I do believe the Bible teaches the trinity, even though the word trinity is not used. This teaching predates the councils by many years. A lot of folk have no idea what John 1:1 means.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

Thank you Bro James. I've enjoyed reading your post though I disagree with you. I however don't understand the use of Selah though. I think it closely resembles the Hebrew Celah which provides for a measured beat of music. Mabyed Selah is a musical pause. God bless you.

 

Selah is used in the Psalms. Yes, a pause in the music. Not a pause to take a smoke break, but more at: pause and seriously consider what has just been said. i.e. Stop and reflect. Maybe that is why acapella is so appealing to the spirit and not the flesh. Imagine: thousands of voices singing "How Great Thou Art"-- without instruments playing--it will make tears and throat lumps in no time.


I also use: Shalom, peace--the peace that passes understanding.

Bro. James