Easier?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Winman, Feb 25, 2012.

  1. Winman

    Winman
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    Luk 18:24 And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
    25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

    I would like to know how Calvinists understand this scripture. Why, if a person is chosen before the foundation of the world, and drawn by Irresistible Grace would it be more difficult for a rich person to be saved?

    Seems to me if DoG is correct that it would not make one bit of difference if a person is rich or poor whether they would be saved. If God has chosen them and calls them through Irresistible Grace, they will easily be saved.

    So, why did Jesus say it is difficult (How hardly) for a rich person to be saved if the DoG's are correct?
     
  2. Amy.G

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    To the Jews, anyone who was rich must have been blessed by God and so was considered righteous. But Jesus is telling the disciples that wealth has nothing to do with righteousness. He tells them it is impossible for men to achieve righteousness. It is only possible with God.

    27And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.
     
  3. Winman

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    I agree with your interpretation Amy, but that does not answer the question. Why, if God chooses certain individuals to be saved, and draws them with Irresistible Grace would it be difficult for a rich man to enter heaven?
     
  4. glfredrick

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    What, exactly, did Jesus say next?

    You, once again, are ripping a verse out of context to make a point that it does not make.

    What do Calvinists say? PRECISELY what Jesus said:

    "With God, all things are possible." Wake up and realize!
     
  5. Winman

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    That STILL does not answer the question (and I believe you KNOW that). Why would it be more difficult (How hardly) for a rich man to be saved?

    Look, I have been around here long enough to understand Calvinist doctrine (although I know you will disagree).

    First, most Calvinists believe in Unconditional Election. So, it does not matter whether a man is rich or poor whether he will be elected.

    Second, most Calvinists believe in Irresistible Grace. When God calls a man by his effectual grace that man will immediately become willing to believe in Jesus.

    So why would it be more difficult for a rich man to be saved? He has as much chance of being chosen or elected as a poor man, and if he is effectually called he will irresistibly believe in Jesus.

    So again, how do Calvinists reconcile these statements by Jesus saying that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven?
     
  6. Aaron

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    By the same token, how can you not say that a rich man has done more than a poor man to enter into the kingdom of God?
     
  7. Winman

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    Another non-answer. If you can't answer this, simply say so.

    Why, if God elects men unconditionally, and effectually calls those whom he has elected so that they will irresistibly believe the gospel, would it be more difficult for a rich man to be saved?

    If you can't answer, just say so, but don't deflect.
     
  8. annsni

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    It would be if it were up to man - but it's not.
     
  9. Aaron

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    It is an answer. It illuminates your non sequitur.
     
  10. Winman

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    That is not an answer. Jesus said that it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

    Why? Does God have to exert more effectual grace to save a rich man than a poor man? Is it more difficult for God to save a rich man than a poor man in Calvinist thought?

    Jesus was clearly implying that it is more difficult for a rich man to enter heaven than a poor man. Why?
     
  11. Amy.G

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    I think the point Jesus is making is that it is impossible for men to get into heaven based on their own righteousness. Man's righteousness must come from God.
     
  12. Amy.G

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    No. Jesus was saying it is IMPOSSIBLE for a rich (self righteous) man to enter heaven, not that it is more difficult.
     
  13. Iconoclast

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    Winman,

    Although election happened before the world was...it is not apart from means. Salvation happens in real time. God orders each providence step by step....
    In the Ot Israel was warned about riches in this way....
    A person must Guard his heart! An unsaved person mostly boasts in their wealth and strength. a saved person who God allows to be wealthy acknowledges God in all he does.

    in the Nt....
    There seems to be an additional temptation with wealth to forget God,and lust after fleshly delights...I will never know this temptation as I am driving a truck,lol.....

    Look at our entertainers...like Whitney Houston...looks, riches,everything but inner peace that comes from God alone.

    Some wealthy people are among the elect...but their wealth is more of an afterthought as they are more like Moses...good stewards of the wealth;
    They are single minded:thumbsup:

    Most rich people do not come to hear the word preached among the saints....when is the last time you saw the rich and famous?
    the riches many times keep them from interacting with regular people...the riches are a snare more than a help.
     
    #13 Iconoclast, Feb 26, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 26, 2012
  14. convicted1

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    Correct......

    Correct again. The rich have no desire to come because they put their wealth ahead of everything in their life. It's not that they can't come, but rather, won't come. The rich young ruler walked away sorrowful because his trust was in his wealth. His wealth is what Jesus told him to desperse amongst the poor, and pick up his cross, and follow Him. He didn't want to, because his love was in his wealth/possessions, and not God. This is why it's harder for the rich to get saved.
     
    #14 convicted1, Feb 26, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 26, 2012
  15. mandym

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    He definitely says that it is more difficult. This is made clear by the setting apart of this type of person. Rich people find it much more difficult to understand the need to rely on God because they feel so secure with their wealth. This is a good example that tears down the false view of election.
     
  16. Winman

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    Amy, you are missing the point of my question completely. We are all sinners, it is impossible for any of us to enter heaven on merit.

    But in the non-Cal view a man can be saved if he chooses to submit to God and trust in Christ. In the non-Cal view it makes sense that a poor man would trust Christ before a rich person would. Rich people tend to be much more confident in themselves than a poor person. They tend to be more self-reliant.

    Prov 11:28 He that trusteth in his riches shall fall: but the righteous shall flourish as a branch.

    Deut 8:11 Beware that thou forget not the LORD thy God, in not keeping his commandments, and his judgments, and his statutes, which I command thee this day:
    12 Lest when thou hast eaten and art full, and hast built goodly houses, and dwelt therein;
    13 And when thy herds and thy flocks multiply, and thy silver and thy gold is multiplied, and all that thou hast is multiplied;
    14 Then thine heart be lifted up, and thou forget the LORD thy God, which brought thee forth out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage;

    Psa 52:7 Lo, this is the man that made not God his strength; but trusted in the abundance of his riches, and strengthened himself in his wickedness.

    As you can see, the scriptures warn against riches. It is not sinful to be rich, but there is a tendency for rich people to forget God and trust in their own abilities. Riches will tempt a man to sin and oppress the poor.

    Poor people tend to look to God for help.

    1 Tim 5:5 Now she that is a widow indeed, and desolate, trusteth in God, and continueth in supplications and prayers night and day.

    There was no Social Security in bible days, a widow, especially if she had no children to help her, had a very difficult time surviving. She would trust and pray to God constantly to sustain her.

    Psa10:14 Thou hast seen it; for thou beholdest mischief and spite, to requite it with thy hand: the poor committeth himself unto thee; thou art the helper of the fatherless.

    So Amy, it is a theme of the scriptures that rich men tend to forget about God, while the poor and fatherless look to God.

    Now, the point of my question. In the Calvinist view, being rich or poor should make no difference whatsoever. Most Calvinists believe that before a person was even born that God chose who would be saved and who would not. This is Unconditional Election, and it has nothing whatsoever to do with the man himself. It doesn't matter if he is rich, poor, good, or evil. God makes his choice for whatever reason, but his reason is always outside the man.

    Most Calvinists also believe in Irresistible Grace. If God has elected a man for whatever reason, he will effectually draw that man and he will irresistibly believe in Christ. It doesn't matter if he is rich, poor, good, or evil.

    So, why would it be more difficult for a rich man to enter heaven than a poor man? If God chooses whom he will, and irresistibly causes that person to believe, it would make no difference whether he were rich or poor. No difference whatsoever. If Calvinism is correct, it should be just as easy for a rich man to be saved as a poor man.

    Do you understand the question now?

    So why did Jesus say "How hardly (difficult) shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of heaven"?
     
    #16 Winman, Feb 26, 2012
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 26, 2012
  17. glfredrick

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    Simply put, without Jesus it is impossible. More difficult for a rich man? They don't have to trust anyone else for their sufficiency. They can't HEAR God because their ears are stopped up with the sound of money and God sounds like a tax collector to them. IF they can hear God, they will answer, same as everyone else. Hence, with GOD all things are possible.

    You must read ALL of the Scriptures, not base your entire doctrine on one verse pulled out of context.

    OR

    Are you once again arguing that it is UP TO US to figure out how to come to God based on something WE do?

    Is ELECTION salvation? Or are there other steps to the process... You need to answer that question before anything else will make sense.
     
  18. Winman

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    It should make no difference whether a man is rich or poor, proud or humble in your system. If the man has been unconditionally elected, and if God irresistibly calls whom he has elected, that man should be saved just as easily as every other elect person.

    In your system, salvation is completely outside the man himself. It doesn't matter if he is the richest and most evil person on earth, if God has elected him, he will irresistibly repent and believe in Jesus.

    So, again, why did Jesus say it is difficult for a rich person to enter heaven?
     
  19. glfredrick

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    Winman, what is your point?

    What are you arguing FOR?

    Think about it...

    You think that you are arguing AGAINST a particular doctrinal stance, but in fact that is not what you are doing.

    Think very carefully about your argument and why you are arguing it...
     
  20. mandym

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    It is these types of posts that create the disunity between cals and on cals. Maybe you should ask for clarification rather than assert very arrogantly that you know better what his argument is. This is what Calvinism does to people.
     

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