1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Ecclesiology

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Ruiz, May 29, 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    How do you get a theological definition when you start with a wrong premise? If you are reading into the verse an already pre-conceived theology then you have made up your mind what the verse means before you even exegete it with an open mind. If you know what the word means, then you know that you have to change your theology because your contrived meaning of the word won't fit your preconceived theology. You are wandering around in circles.

    What haven't I answered for you? Give me a concrete example.
     
  2. Ruiz

    Ruiz New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2010
    Messages:
    2,021
    Likes Received:
    0
    My side does not read into the verse with a preconcieved notion, that is what I am combating with your idea. What we do is inductive, we read the verse and note what we learn from the verse about that word.

    I gave concrete examples with pnuema, baptism, inspired, etc...
     
  3. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2004
    Messages:
    2,674
    Likes Received:
    0
    In your studies of the Greek language you may have run into the world Katholikos. It later was Latinized to the word Catholic. This word to me looks to mean All, or Universal.

    So if I say I agree with you as to the Universal Gospel, and your word that all are saved, would you agree to this observation?

    Some ihere, and in your church may not go along with using the word Universal, but they are in the same quandary as you. They, the local Baptist church (that had its own beginning), and all that carry the name Baptist, did bring baggage from the Universal Mother Church.
     
  4. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2004
    Messages:
    2,674
    Likes Received:
    0
    Is it a theology we are to believe or a gospel? Theology only came by man.
     
  5. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    Theology proper is the study of God, as the name indicates.
    The gospel means the good news. The good news is that Jesus died, was buried and rose for our sins. By doing so he paid the penalty for our sins, a penalty that we could never pay. He, the God-man, sacrificed himself that we, by believing in his work on the cross, might have eternal life. That is the good news.

    In the study of the church, ecclesiology, ecclesia means the study of the ekklesia or the assembly. Our English word "church" has many meanings. The Greek word "ekklesia" translated as church in the NT has only one Biblical meaning, and that is assembly. Nowhere in the Bible does it have a universal meaning. The word "universal" is not even found in the Bible.

    The closest one can come to the concept is here:
    But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, (Hebrews 12:22-23)
    --But this takes place in heaven, not on earth. There is no such thing as a universal gathering of believers on earth. Anyone who says there is, is________...You fill in the blank.
    At what place do all believers in the world meet?
    Who preaches the sermon?
    Who takes up the offering?
    Who are the deacons?
    How is the Lord's Supper administered?
    Just where does all this take place; please I want to know?

    You see, there is no such thing as a universal assembly; an unassembled assembly. It is impossible for it to exist. It is a contradiction of terms.
     
  6. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137

    Baptists existed before the RCC and therefore did not bring any baggage from the RCC. Where did you get that from? Neither are there any here that claim to be seccesionists in the way that you are using the term or inference. So your point is moot. A Baptist church is totally independent--independent of other Baptists, denominations, and certainly independent of Rome.
    I don't know what your point is, but you haven't made it.

    You are right about the origin of the word universal and Catholic, but that has nothing to do with me.
     
  7. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    I refuted those already.
    Pneuma has more than one meaning and thus the meaning is determined by the context; whether it is translated spirit or wind. The same goes for other words. When a word like ekklesia has only one meaning (assembly), you don't have that liberty. You don't have the liberty to take a word like chair and translate it "table," which is what you are trying to do.
     
  8. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    I have enough Greek to be able to read the the first chapter of John. Without the knowledge of the vocabulary, what the words actually mean, I would have no understanding at all. The meaning of the word logos, for example, means "word." Since there are other words that mean "word," I must then study the context and other Scripture to find out what the Scripture here is speaking about. My theology begins once I know what the basic meaning of the words. You are ignoring that fact.

    How can you read English if you don't know the meanings of the words that you are reading. This a most basic concept. Meanings of words are essential to understanding of any language. And the meaning of ekklesia is "assembly." That is its meaning. Develop your theology from there.
     
  9. Ruiz

    Ruiz New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2010
    Messages:
    2,021
    Likes Received:
    0
    and ekklesia has more than one meaning. I never denied that assembly is a part of one definition. I denied it was a part of all the definitions. In fact, when I outlined what it means, the first point was that we agree that there is a local church component.

    How do I know all this? I let the context dictate what it means. Like pneuma, it does have a meaning of wind and breathe, but if you try to use it for all the places it is used then you will commit a serious error. We will make the third person of the Trinity nothing more than breathe or wind.

    Thus, your exclusivity that ekklesia must be an assembly is paramount to saying pneuma must be wind. It makes no sense.
     
  10. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    What other meaning do you think ekklesia has, and please give a source.
     
  11. Ruiz

    Ruiz New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2010
    Messages:
    2,021
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have noted that there is a difference in normal uses of the words and theological uses of the words. Logos, for instance, in I John is used theologically. Thus, it is not right to say that the Jesus is merely a "word." Rather, that is representing a theological concept and "word" is really not an accurate definition. You have to go back to Genesis and then over to Colossians to understand logos. If I were to say, the 2nd person of the Trinity is just a word.

    That is what I am doing with ekklesia, it is used theologically thus must be defined by context.
     
  12. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    As far as I know ekklesia has only one meaning in both koine and classical Greek, and that is assembly. Even the context of a verse cannot make it say what it doesn't say. You can't make chair mean table. The only way you can make table mean something different is when it is "Lord's Table," but even then we know why the word "table" is being used. You haven't given any reason why "assembly" shouldn't be assembly. Please demonstrate.
     
  13. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2005
    Messages:
    9,031
    Likes Received:
    2
    No Baptist I know has ever suggested that it does. Congregations since the beginning have had to deal with falsely-professed members. It started with Judas. God killed Ananias and Sapphira at FBC Jerusalem for their offenses. Paul warned the elders at FBC Ephesus about wolves who would creep in to the congregation. He warned the elders that some among themselves would speak perverse things, drawing disciples after them. Paul also warned FBC Galatia about the Judaizers. Yet, Paul described FBC Ephesus as having been purchased by the blood of Jesus. Still a true church.

    During a mission trip to Romania, I was told that when Communism fell in 1989, three deacons of a Baptist church disappeared. They were Communists who had infiltrated their church, and so deceived the members that the church selected them as deacons.

    But they were the exception. The majority of members are true followers of Christ.

    Let's see, assuming that there are believers in every Christian denomination, then we have a CHURCH with members who believe in baptismal regeneration; who err regarding the mode, design and subjects of baptism; who believe that salvation does not require one to change behavior; who believe Mary is co-Redemptrix with the Son; it is an entity that is fractured by a lack of unity of belief and practice; it is dysfunctional in that it is totally useless in carrying out the Great Commission. It is an entity that even its proponents struggle to articulate its purpose for existence.

    Yes, true. But there's more.

    Wait a minute. Do I really need the CHURCH for that? Actually, I communed with God last Sunday in my local church. My soul magnified the Lord. My wife and I communed with God in our home as we prayed together and praised his name.
     
    #93 Tom Butler, Jun 2, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 2, 2011
  14. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2005
    Messages:
    9,031
    Likes Received:
    2
    Brothers and sisters, this discussion may be one of the best I have ever participated in. I'm talking about the tone of the discussion, for one thing.

    Ruiz and DHK have engaged in vigorous debate. Those whom I have engaged have maintained civility in our debate, which presenting arguments for their positions.

    Now this is the way vigorous debate should be on the Baptist Board.

    We now return to the robust give-and-take.
     
  15. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2011
    Messages:
    8,913
    Likes Received:
    240
    Still confused on one major issue in this "debate"...

    isn't the Body of Christ assembled in heaven and on earth at angy given moment in time really the "Church?"

    And Universal Church just refers to that number, another name to "Body of Christ?"

    Agree with tone of debate...

    maybe you can persuade it over to the Calvinists Vrs the Arminians debating their theologies!
     
  16. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2005
    Messages:
    9,031
    Likes Received:
    2
    Agree in part. An assembled church on earth is truly the Body of Christ. In fact, Paul made precisely that point to FBC Corinth when wrote to them, "Now YOU are THE body of Christ." (I Cor 12:27)

    No U-church at Corinth. No U-church here in Paducah.
     
  17. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    137
    I want to look at this again. I did some further study on it.

    The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. (John 3:8)

    The acceptable definitions of pneuma are wind and spirit which I agreed with you. However, did you know that in this verse the word "wind" is the only place in the NT where the word "pneuma" is translated "wind".
    Pneuma is used 385 times in the NT and only once it is translated as "wind". All 384 translations are "spirit" or another form like its adjectival use "spiritual". In other words, the use of the word "wind" is a very minor use.

    When Paul writes to the churches, he writes to the ekklesia, or assemblies. The word ekklesia is used 115 times. 112 times it is translated "church" and 3 times it is translated "church." All 115 times it means assembly. I believe if you were to read through Darby's translation you would find the word ekklesia translated all 115 times as "assembly." From its usage in the NT it doesn't have another meaning.

    We can go through the NT and demonstrate how the KJV authors translated various words, even the word logos for example, and see how they were used, how they were translated, how many definitions they have, how many meanings the translators gave them, etc. But when it comes to the word ekklesia, the translators were very, very consistent.

    That is because the church was an assembly of believers. It never referred to a buildings. Buildings were not built for assemblies of believers until at least 250 years after the death of the apostles or 350 A.D.

    Here is some other telling Scripture.

    First, look at the context:
    And he killed James the brother of John with the sword. And because he saw it pleased the Jews, he proceeded further to take Peter also. (Then were the days of unleavened bread.) (Acts 12:2-3)
    --Herod was about to kill Peter.

    Peter therefore was kept in prison: but prayer was made without ceasing of the church unto God for him. (Acts 12:5)
    --Most people would take the word "church" in a context like this and automatically say that this is "the church universal." But is it?

    And when he had considered the thing, he came to the house of Mary the mother of John, whose surname was Mark; where many were gathered together praying. (Acts 12:12)
    But Peter continued knocking: and when they had opened the door, and saw him, they were astonished. But he, beckoning unto them with the hand to hold their peace, declared unto them how the Lord had brought him out of the prison. And he said, Go shew these things unto James, and to the brethren. And he departed, and went into another place. (Acts 12:16-17)

    The church was a local church. It was the church that had gathered at the house of Mary the mother of John. Those believers were the ones that were praying for Peter, not all the believers all over the known world at that time. The "church" in verse 5 is a local church not a universal church.
     
  18. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    30,285
    Likes Received:
    507
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Ten pages. Good thoughts.

    May want to ask any more questions on a new thread. Please limit to NEW subject (and call it by that name)

    Tanks
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...