Ecumenical work between Evangelicals and the RCC

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by BobRyan, May 25, 2005.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    Christianity Today has just come out with an article on ecumenical progress and promise between evangelicals and CAtholics.

    In the opening section of that article we find this quote...

    Where is there agreement on the "means of grace" when Evangelicals reject the role of the RC priest, eucharist, sacramental "powers" etc?


    Why in the world would they be working on progress in the area of "Papal infallibility", or even care about it??

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  2. Melanie

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    I think I agree with Bob......

    The mania for ecumenicism in the RCC has caused a significant deviation from the course prescribed in the Magisterium. The RCC should leave well alone and concerntrate on catechism for the faithful.

    Briony-G
     
  3. Gold Dragon

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    If we are to honestly work towards unity of the body that Christ prayed for in John 17 and Paul urged in Ephesians 4, then we need to talk about our differences

    While we may never agree on these issues in this generation or any others for that matter, lets not pretend that these differences don't exist or aren't important.
     
  4. Monergist

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    I just can't figure out what fellowship light has with darkness.
     
  5. BobRyan

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    My point on Papal infallibility is that you must first "be A Catholic" to believe in it. How in the world are Evangelicals going to "make progress" on that difference as long as they are not Catholic? Or is the Catholic church offering to drop it? I suppose that is one way to make real progress.

    In Christ,
     
  6. billwald

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    Not that simple. Some protestant denominations don't accept the authority of the ecumenical creeds, either. How can they be "Christian?" The people who "only believe in" a book (formulated by the Orthodox Catholic Church).
     
  7. shannonL

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    I call it "Christianity Astray" HA! I don't care what kind of face the dead pope tried to put on the RCC. It is still of Satan. The RCC hasn't changed one bit sense the days they used to burn reformers at the stake. Go read the Catholic Creed of 2000. They may have tweaked Vatican II a fraction or so but they are still a purely pagan outfit to the core. They consider us evangelicals to be "seperated brothern". Well just as soon as they could get us back in the fold they would let the hammer fall on all those who failed to bow the church. The RCC is all about power! The RCC is one of the worst things ever divised out of the pit of hell! We need to warn people of the RCC heretical doctrine not dialogue with the Vatican. Please that makes me throw up
     
  8. BobRyan

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    Are you saying they accept God's Word - the Bible but do not accept the traditions of later generations who were falling into RC error?
     
  9. tragic_pizza

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    That's the most out-of-place statement I have ever read.

    Catholics aren't in league with Satan, no matter how much you really, really, rreeeaaaalllyy want them to be.

    The idea that the Catholic Church and a group of evengelicals who haven't been poisoned by the "those evil papists" brand of Christinsanity are speaking and working toward community is heartening. No doubt the two will never agree on some points, like Papal infallibility and such, but how glorious the idea that, after centuries of tearing the Body apart, we Christians can work as one to bring the saving grace of Christ to a dying planet!
     
  10. Claudia_T

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    Many of you are under a huge deception when it comes to the Roman Catholic Church's intent when they pretend to be "ecumenical" with the Protestants.

    ...and the person here who said they dont see what unity light has with darkness is correct. Too bad so many have forgotten what a "Protest-ant" is supposed to be. We should unify with the Roman Catholic Church just about as much as Jesus unified with the Pharisees of His day.. or with any other group who held to false doctrines. If a group is teaching false ideas about God, who is our Father, it is not our job to try to be in unity with them and thus lend our influence to help what they are doing. And if you are under the delusion that you are truly going to change the Roman Catholic Church then God help you because that is not going to occur.


    Taken from "The Great Controversy-- Liberty of Conscience Threatened":

    Romanism is now regarded by Protestants with far greater favor than in former years. In those countries where Catholicism is not in the ascendancy, and the papists are taking a conciliatory course in order to gain influence, there is an increasing indifference concerning the doctrines that separate the reformed churches from the papal hierarchy; the opinion is gaining ground that, after all, we do not differ so widely upon vital points as has been supposed, and that a little concession on our part will bring us into a better understanding with Rome. The time was when Protestants placed a high value upon the liberty of conscience which had been so dearly purchased. They taught their children to abhor popery and held that to seek harmony with Rome would be disloyalty to God. But how widely different are the sentiments now expressed!

    The defenders of the papacy declare that the church has been maligned, and the Protestant world are inclined to accept the statement. Many urge that it is unjust to judge the church of today by the abominations and absurdities that marked her reign during the centuries of ignorance and darkness. They excuse her horrible cruelty as the result of the barbarism of the times and plead that the influence of modern civilization has changed her sentiments.


    Have these persons forgotten the claim of infallibility put forth for eight hundred years by this haughty power? So far from being relinquished, this claim was affirmed in the nineteenth century with greater positiveness than ever before. As Rome asserts that the "church never erred; nor will it, according to the Scriptures, ever err " (John L. von Mosheim, Institutes of Ecclesiastical History, book 3, century II, part 2, chapter 2, section 9, note 17), how can she renounce the principles which governed her course in past ages?

    The papal church will never relinquish her claim to infallibility. All that she has done in her persecution of those who reject her dogmas she holds to be right; and would she not repeat the same acts, should the opportunity be presented? Let the restraints now imposed by secular governments be removed and Rome be reinstated in her former power, and there would speedily be a revival of her tyranny and persecution.

    A well-known writer speaks thus of the attitude of the papal hierarchy as regards freedom of conscience, and of the perils which especially threaten the United States from the success of her policy:

    "There are many who are disposed to attribute any fear of Roman Catholicism in the United States to bigotry or childishness. Such see nothing in the character and attitude of Romanism that is hostile to our free institutions, or find nothing portentous in its growth. Let us, then, first compare some of the fundamental principles of our government with those of the Catholic Church.

    "The Constitution of the United States guarantees liberty of conscience . Nothing is dearer or more fundamental. Pope Pius IX, in his Encyclical Letter of August 15, 1854, said: `The absurd and erroneous doctrines or ravings in defense of liberty of conscience are a most pestilential error--a pest, of all others, most to be dreaded in a state.' The same pope, in his Encyclical Letter of December 8, 1864, anathematized `those who assert the liberty of conscience and of religious worship,' also 'all such as maintain that the church may not employ force.'

    "The pacific tone of Rome in the United States does not imply a change of heart. She is tolerant where she is helpless. Says Bishop O'Connor: 'Religious liberty is merely endured until the opposite can be carried into effect without peril to the Catholic world.'. . . The archbishop of St. Louis once said: 'Heresy and unbelief are crimes; and in Christian countries, as in Italy and Spain, for instance, where all the people are Catholics, and where the Catholic religion is an essential part of the law of the land, they are punished as other crimes.'. . .

    "Every cardinal, archbishop, and bishop in the Catholic Church takes an oath of allegiance to the pope, in which occur the following words: 'Heretics, schismatics, and rebels to our said lord (the pope), or his aforesaid successors, I will to my utmost persecute and oppose.'"--Josiah Strong, Our Country, ch. 5, pars. 2-4.

    You can finish reading that this chapter by going here:

    http://www.egwtext.whiteestate.org/gc/gc35.html


    -------------

    Claudia Thompson
    http://www.countrymanordesigns.com
    http://www.christiangraphics.org
    http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org
     
  11. Soulman

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    I believe the RCC to be the "Great whore of Babylon drunken with the blood of the saints'. Why? The whore is the false bride of Christ. Millions of christians were slaughtered by her during the Dark Ages all in the name of Christ. Signifying her being drunk on the blood of the saints'.

    Anyone wishing to join forces with her new inclusiveness is as deceived as her members.

    We must worship God in spirit and truth! That doesn't mean to join with everyone that says they are christian.

    The ecumenical movement is wrong and does not serve the cause of Christ!
     
  12. tragic_pizza

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    Based upon what, exactly? The verses in Revelation almost certainly (if not completely allegorical in nature - this depends upon one's eschatological views) speaks of a government, not a religious body. Rome (almost certainly the focus of these particular Scriptures) was at the time of the writing of the Revelation a secular center of world government. It wasn't until centuries later that Rome became the headquarters of the Catholic Church - and that after splitting with the Eastern Orthodox church, if memory serves.

    So... where are you getting this information? Cite your source.

    Based upon what, exactly? The idea that "we're in, they're out, and they can just go ahead and go to Hell if they don't accept my seventeen points of precise theological beliefs?"

    Is this truly what Jesus came to do - divide us all into bits an pieces and set us at one another's throats while the world around us suffers and dies needlessly?

    (Ask me sometime how the British kept India under control for so many years. It is instructive in this discussion.)

    Look, if trying to heal centuries-old rifts (not in theology, but in fellowship) in order to (a)fulfill Jesus' prayer in John 17, and (b) to be about the most important work of glorifying God through sharing His Gospel to a dying world is "being decieved," I'd like to know what Bible the "undecieved" are using.

    The Pharisees of Jesus' time were obsessed with practicing every point of proper theology, and only succeeded in missing the greater point of serving God. I fear many of my brothers and sisters in Christ, who value a set orthodoxy over the rigors of orthopraxy, have fallen headling and with joyful abandon into the same trap.
     
  13. BobRyan

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    TP - your question to Soulman "in general" could be stated as - "How is the RCC identified in Revelation"?

    In Rev 12 the True Church of God (Both OT and NT) is represented as PURE WOMAN. SHE is the source of Christ in Rev 12, SHE wears white and SHE is persecuted by Satan. It is HER children that Satan hates and that are called "the remnant" and "saints" in Rev 12.

    In James 4 the same symbol is used by implication in contrast to the "adulteress" woman in James 4 which is a church-in-compromise.

    In Rev 17 we see the "impure woman" that even more perfectly matches the "impure woman" designation in James 4 -- as a church.

    In the book of Revelation a "woman" never indicates "government" but rather "church".

    In Rev 17 her name is "Babylon" in 1 Peter 5 - even the RC posters here admit that the term Babylon was accepted by NT readers as referring to Rome.

    So this becomes "The Church of Rome" just using the "simple pointers" in the NT.

    But here is more. In Rev 17 we find that this is a persecuting power that specifically persecutes the saints.

    Nothing is more fitting of the RCC during the dark ages persecuting the saints. The fact that Rev 17 is an "impure woman" indicates that she is "supposed to be Pure" and was at one time pure -- so this IS a Christian church gone into apostacy and based in Rome.

    This is called a map and a flashlight and a big sign saying "The church of Rome 1 mile ahead"!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. Kamoroso

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    Jer 3:8-9 8 And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.
    9 And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.

    Ezek 16:14-15 14 And thy renown went forth among the heathen for thy beauty: for it was perfect through my comeliness, which I had put upon thee, saith the Lord GOD.
    15 But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was.

    Ezek 16:28-29 28 Thou hast played the whore also with the Assyrians, because thou wast unsatiable; yea, thou hast played the harlot with them, and yet couldest not be satisfied.
    29 Thou hast moreover multiplied thy fornication in the land of Canaan unto Chaldea; and yet thou wast not satisfied herewith.

    Hosea 4:15 15 Though thou, Israel, play the harlot, yet let not Judah offend; and come not ye unto Gilgal, neither go ye up to Bethaven, nor swear, The LORD liveth.

    During the old covenant, the Lord referred to the nation of Israel as a harlot when she had illicit relationships with her surrounding nations, and their gods. So also, in the new covenant, those who called themselves Christians, but had illicit relationships with the kings of the earth, and their gods are playing the harlot. The Church of Rome is the MOTHER OF HARLOTS, because she was the first " Christian " institution to apostatize and have relations with the kings of the earth, mixing pagan practices and worship with Christianity. This policy she also continues today, thus she is ever present at the UN and has ambassadors from virtually every nation tending to her.

    Rev 17:1-2 1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
    2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.


    Rev 17:5 5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

    63. Then came Constantine, the best imperial representative of the new paganism, and the most devout worshiper of the sun as the supreme and universal deity, with the avowed purpose, as expressed in his own words, "First to bring the diverse judgments formed by all nations respecting the Deity to a condition, as it were, of settled uniformity." In Constantine the new paganism met its ideal, and the New Platonism - the apostate, paganized, sun-worshiping form of Christianity - met its long-wished-for instrument. In him the two streams met. In him the aspiration of Elagabalus, the hope of Ammonius Saccas and Clement, of Plotinus and Origen, and the ambition of the perverse-minded, self-exalted bishops, were all realized and accomplished - a new, imperial, and universal religion was created.
    64. Therefore, "the reign of Constantine the Great forms one of the epochs in the history of the world. It is the era of the dissolution of the Roman Empire; the commencement, or rather consolidation, of a kind of Eastern despotism, with a new capital, a new patriciate, a new constitution, a new financial system, a new, though as yet imperfect, jurisprudence, and, finally, a new religion." - Milman.
    65. The epoch thus formed was the epoch of the papacy; and the new religion thus created was the PAPAL RELIGION. ( THE GREAT EMPIRES OF PROPHECY A. T. Jones )

    Constantine brought Sun worshippers, and Christians together, forming a new religion of the two. Although he claimed to become a Christian, he did so for the above purpose, and never claimed to abandon the worship of the sun. The result being the formation of the Church of Rome, and the exaltation of the day of the Sun as the Christian Sabbath.

    "In A.D. 321, to please the bishops of the Catholic Church, he issued an edict commanding judges, townspeople, and mechanics to rest on Sunday. Yet in this also his paganism was still manifest, as the edict required rest on "the venerable day of the sun," and "enjoined the observance, or rather forbade the public desecration, of Sunday, not under the name of Sabbatum, or Dies Domini, but under its old astrological and heathen title, Dies Solis, familiar to all his subjects, so that the law was as applicable to the worshipers of Hercules, Apollo, and Mithras, as to the Christians." - Schaff.

    "The same tenacious adherence to the ancient god of light has left its trace, even to our own time, on one of the most sacred and universal of Christian institutions. The retention of the old pagan name of "Dies Solis,' or 'Sunday,' for the weekly Christian festival, is in great measure owing to the union of pagan and Christian sentiment with which the first day of the week was recommended by Constantine to his subjects, pagan and Christian alike, as the 'venerable day of the sun.'... It was his mode of harmonizing the discordant religions of the empire under one common institution." - Stanley.

    Accordingly, now "his coins bore on the one side the letters of the name of Christ, on the other the figure of the sun-god, and the inscription, 'Sol invictus' (the unconquerable sun), as if he could not bear to relinquish the patronage of the bright luminary which represented to him, as to Augustus and to Julian, his own guardian deity." - Stanley.

    The Church of Rome is a political organization. She is that apostate form of Christianity which first forsook the power of the Holy Spirit, in favor of the power of the state, for the furtherance of her goals. These things she accomplished by having adulterous relations with the kings of the earth. She is the MOTHER OF HARLOTS, and as such, of course she has children. Those Protestant denominations which broke away from her, but also leaned on the power of the state to enforce their dogmas, were acting the part of her daughters. It was not until the establishment of the USA, that many Protestant denominations fully broke away from the Romish idea of combining church and state.

    "In order to avoid wars and persecutions over religion, the founders of the United States tried a bold experiment. They allowed FREEDOM OF RELIGION by separating church from state, so that one could be a full member of civil society without having to belong to a particular church. Colonies that had established churches gradually ended that practice so that churches were no longer built by the state, nor were their ministers paid by the state. Churches began to rely on the voluntary contributions of their members, which resulted in more vigorous churches." (Groliers)

    Any Christian denomination that wants to use the power of the state to enforce or further it's goals, is a daughter of Babylon, the Mother of Harlots. She is the originator of this mind set. Rome, in it's pagan, and papal form, is the fourth metal, and beast of the book of Daniel chapters four,and seven. As the scriptures point out, she will be with us until Christ returns, destroying the kingdoms of this earth and setting up His literal and everlasting kingdom in this world.

    Dan 2:33-35 33 His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.
    34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
    35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

    Rome is rising again, and many Protestant churches are returning to their Mother. These things must happen before Christ returns. The second beast of Revelation will be formed when the worlds religions, headed by the Church of Rome, once again unite with the state on a worldwide basis and use the state to enforce their dogma. This dogma will be the forced worship spoken of in the book of Rev. Chap. thirteen. I leave you with the following quote.

    When Christianity conquered Rome the ecclesiastical structure of the pagan church, the title and vestments of the pontifex maximus, the worship of the Great Mother and a multitude of comforting divinities, the sense of supersensible presences everywhere, the joy or solemnity of old festivals, and the pageantry of immemorial ceremony, passed like maternal blood into the new religion, and captive Rome captured her conqueror. The reins and skill of government were handed down by a dying empire to a virile papacy; the lost power of the broken sword was rewon by the magic of the consoling word; the armies of the state were replaced by the missionaries of the Church moving in all directions along the Roman roads; and the revolted provinces, accepting Christianity, again acknowledged the sovereignty of Rome. Through the long struggles of the Age of Faith the authority of the ancient capital persisted and grew, until in the Renaissance the classic culture seemed to rise from the grave, and the immortal city became once more the center of summit of the world's life and wealth and art. When, in 1936, Rome celebrated the 2689th anniversary of her foundation, she could look back upon the most impressive continuity of government and civilization in the history of mankind. May she rise again.(CAESAR AND CHRIST, A history of Roman Civilization and of Christianity from theri beginnings to A.D.325. By Will Durant-1944)

    Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith
     

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