ekklesia

Discussion in '2006 Archive' started by wopik, Mar 27, 2006.

  1. wopik

    wopik
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    The church Jesus Christ said He would build (Matthew 16:18)

    was the "assembly" (Greek: ekklesia) of the early apostles, including Paul, who described himself as "one begotten out of due season," Barnabas and others, besides the original eleven, together with Matthias, who replaced Judas Iscariot.

    They continued to observe the weekly Sabbath, for which there is absolute, incontrovertible proof in the New Testament Scriptures.

    They continued to observe the annual Sabbaths, such as Pentecost (the "birthday" of the New Testament Church—Acts 2), the Days of Unleavened Bread (I Corinthians 5) and the Passover (I Corinthians 11). Luke mentions the "fast" (Day of Atonement—Acts 27:9) in about A.D. 55-56, long after the Ascension of Christ.

    They observed the Passover exactly as did Christ on the 14th of Nisan, or Abib, the first month of the sacred calendar.
     
  2. standingfirminChrist

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    The early apostles assembled every day of the week, so one cannot say they observed the sabbath any more than any other day.

    The Pentecost was on the 50th day, which was not a Sabbath. Sabbath was always the 7th day; Pentecost was the 50th day and therefore could not have been a Sabbath. The Apostles in Acts 2 were gathered on a Sunday, the first day of the week.

    Acts 2:46-47 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

    The early church assembled daily. Not just the Sabbath day, but every day.
     
  3. billwald

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    By the middle of Acts the communistic Jerusalem church was starving and the gentiles had to bail them out.
     
  4. wopik

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    It is abundantly clear that the Jerusalem Church never gave up Sabbath observance during the New Testament era. On Paul's last visit to Jerusalem (about 58-60 A.D.), James and all the elders of the Church told Paul how the thousands of converted Jews "are all zealous ["ardent upholders," Moffatt] of the law" (Acts 21:20). In such an environment, it is inconceivable that the cherished and holy Sabbath would no longer be kept.


    In his letter to the Church in Rome in this same time period, 55-59 A.D., Paul reminds them that the Gentiles "have been made partakers of their spiritual things" in a direct reference to the poor saints in the Jerusalem Church for whom Paul was asking physical contributions (Rom. 15:26-27).


    One cannot imagine that "partaking of their spiritual things" would not include worship on the Sabbath, since it was fully revered by the Jewish Christians in Jerusalem and constituted a significant part of their spiritual lives.


    http://intercontinentalcog.org/ICGCC/Lesson_Seven.shtml
     
  5. eloidalmanutha

    eloidalmanutha
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    I think if one checks out the Greek, it states that spiritual things are of the spirit. The context in which "spiritual things" are used throughout the NT, refer to spirituality or as Paul put it also; "all the spiritual blessings *in* Heavenly places *in* Christ" [Eph 1:3]
     
  6. eloidalmanutha

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    that's a pretty big leap in interpretation of that text :eek:
     
  7. tamborine lady

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    [​IMG]

    Acts 22-17 And it came to pass, that, when I was come again to Jerusalem, even while I prayed in the temple, I was in a trance;

    then verse 19 says: And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee:----------them that believe on thee! He found the Christians in the synagogue!! He knew they would be there, so thats where he went to find them!!

    I find it hard to believe that they would be allowed to use the synagogue on Sunday!!

    So the early Christians worshipped on the true Sabbath, on saturday.

    I heard a question on Jeopardy today about the Sabbath and then Alex Trebek said yes, and our sabbath is now on sunday!!

    that offends my spirit. :eek:

    Peace,

    Tam
     
  8. SpiritualMadMan

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    Interesting view...

    And, here it specifically says that Paul taught in the Synagogues...

    Act 19:8 Paul entered the synagogue and spoke boldly there for three months, arguing persuasively about the kingdom of God.
    Act 19:9 But some of them became obstinate; they refused to believe and publicly maligned the Way. So Paul left them. He took the disciples with him and had discussions daily in the lecture hall of Tyrannus.

    I did a word search and found only One Instance of 'The Lord's Day'...

    Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

    Can anyone show me another?

    All other references in the NT appears to say specifically or imply that they met on the Sabbath...

    In the Jewish Context that would be Saturday or the Seveth Day...

    If someone can show me where the NT believers changed from the Sabbath to the Lord's Day for regular worship...

    Please let me know...

    But, what is the point?

    Is it to bring us into bondage to a rule or regulation?

    Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

    -and-

    Gal 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
    Gal 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.


    Thanks,

    Mike Sr.

    BTW: The Gentiles *may* have woshiped on the first day of the week... Else why set aside the money then... For a week later...

    1Co 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
     
  9. BobRyan

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    I agree that the Jewish NT Saints included all the Apostles and that they continued to observe things like Passover and Day of Atonement etc.

    They were Commandment keeping (and yes even Sabbath keeping) Bible believing saints even before the first Gospels or Epistles of the NT began to roll off the presses.

    It was ONE church in all ages as Rev 12 shows precross AND post cross.

    But the "sacrifices" ended as Heb 10 points out and these sacrifices were the very heart of the annual Sabbath observances.

    The NT Jewish saints continued to attend services WITH sacrifices in the temple (as Paul did when we see him rushing back to Jerusalem to be there for Passover) -- as well as attending weekly Synagogue services.

    We even see gentiles hearing "Moses ever Sabbath" in Acts 15 just as we seem them hearing him in Acts 13.

    All agreed.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. BobRyan

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    1Cor 16 It says to "lay aside by yourself" funds to be collected later and do it at the first of the week -- on "week day 1" not on "The Lord's Day" and not on "Sabbath" -- get it? "weekday 1".

    At the very first of the week - lay aside the funds that will be needed and picked up later when the group meets "on the Lord's day".

    Week day 1 - is a good time to set aside that gift to make sure it does not get used for other things duing the week.

    BUT IF this is the place to "introduce" the idea of a week-day-1 service that is to be called a "Lord's Day Service" that has singing, and study and worship and oh-yeah also some offerings to be collected - then 1Cor 16 was a good place to mention it!!

    If Acts 13 was a good place to KEEP MENTIONing the honored title given to Christ the Creator's Holy Day "Sabbath" - then 1 Cor 16 was a great place to INTRODUCE and emphasize the honored term "LORD's Day" is applied to "Week-day-1" and should be viewed as "Lord's Day Worship Services" not simply a time on "week-day-1" where each one saves a little cash at the start of each week!

    Agreed?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. eloidalmanutha

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    the sacrifices in the Temple could only be done under the authority of the High Priest. Jesus is the High Priest, appointed by God forever - His death and resurrection gaining that position. He would personally have to oversee/authorize the sacrifices done in the Temple, and remove the current High Priest physically from office if the Jewish saints could continue the sacrificial system.

    The problem - I don't think Jesus is gonna go for that one - He is the sacrifice once and for all ;)
     
  12. eloidalmanutha

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    Bob or Wopik,
    I wondered if you could tell me how the feasts could be kept without the sacrifices?

    thanx [​IMG]
     
  13. wopik

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    Luke mentions the "fast" (Day of Atonement—Acts 27:9) in about A.D. 55-56, long after the Ascension of Christ.


    eloidalmanutha


    NO leap at all.


    English Standard Version:

    "Since much time had passed, and the voyage was now dangerous because even the Fast was already over, Paul advised them,"


    KJV 'center margin' says: "the fast was on the tenth day of the seventh month. Lev. 23:27; Num 29:7"
     
  14. wopik

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    Jeremiah
    7:22
    For in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to your fathers or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices.


    7:23
    But this command I gave them: Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be my people. And walk in all the way that I command you, that it may be well with you.
     
  15. Eliyahu

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    Actually we discussed about the Heavenly Universal Church at the other thread on Roman Catholic tradition kept by Protestants.

    I believe such Heavenly Universal Church better be discussed on this thread, so I brought the last comment of mine here:
    ---
    Actually this is quite interesting and important subject which have to be discussed sincerely among the true believers, but I think this is not suitalbe for this thread and I found another thread called " ekklesia" opened by wopik. If you agree, let's move there. If we have only local churches and the heavenly universal church will become available only after Lord's coming, then we are miserable. I am glad that we have Truly, Heavenly Universal Assembly even now and I belong to it which is still under construction and I myself is a brick used in building it up.
    The main target of God is to build up this Heavenly Universal Church ( Assembly) and therefore it is quite important to know about this.
     
  16. DHK

    DHK
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    Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

    This is the only place in Scripture where the Bible speaks of a Heavenly Universal Church. It is still future. It will only happen after the rapture takes place, when all believers will be gathered together as the bride of Christ in heaven, as one assembly. It does not take place now, as there is no one assembly on earth now, and indeed cannot be.
    There is a man of sin coming. He will endeavour to create a one-world religion and will succeed. That will be the one world religion of the Anti-Christ. I don't intend to be here when that happens. But that is as universal as it will get on this earth.
    Unitl that time God has ordained that local assemblies carry out the Great Commission and the two ordinances (the Lord's Supper and baptism) as he commanded each local church. No universal church can do that. No universal church has church government as is described and proscribed in the Bible, in the Pastoral Epistles.
    Why should we "be miserable if we have only local churches in this age?" This is what the Lord has ordained in this "Church Age," since the days of the Apostles. We should rejoice in being able to carry out his will. What evidence (proof) do you ahve that there is a heavenly universal church that exists right now? None! There is no Scripture to back up any such animal. You may be a member of a local church, but the church universal will exist only in heaven.

    John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
    --At salvation we are made "children" (sons and daughters of God. We therefore enter into the family of God, not the universal church. There is a big difference.
    DHK
     
  17. BobRyan

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    #1. I am not arguing that we fire up the sacrifices again.

    #2. I am not arguing that we should attend the same Temple services as did the NT Apostles and all the NT Jewish Christians. Nor that we observe the same sacrifices and offerings in the Temple that they observed

    (See Romans 14 as they observed 'every' holy day listed in the annual Sabbaths given in Lev 23) --

    See Acts 21 --

    #3. I am not even arguing that we should attend the same weekly Sabbath synagogue services as were attended by Gentile believers in God (see Acts 15, and Acts 13).

    All of those services were officiated by Jews who had not yet become Christian.

    I am simply pointing out that obvious - that these examples SHOW us that all the NT Christian Jews (including the Apostles) continued to worship in the Synagogues and Temple and continued to observe the Lev 23 Annual Sabbaths. Even to the point that Gentile Christians were also (according to James in Acts 15) joining in with them in the weekly Sabbath Synagogue services - not just meeting in house churches each Sabbath.

    ---------------------

    Having said that - I agree with the point that if you consider the impact of Heb 9 and 10 fact of "animal sacrifices ended" on the annual "shadow" Sacrifices and annual "Shadow" services - they are not binding for Christians since the sacrifice that they are centered on - is now fulfilled.

    Yet they still teaching valuable Gospel information about HOW the Gospel works and about the role of Christ in our salvation.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. BobRyan

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    This thread does show a unified universal church in the OT and pre-cross period that is still being honored and even attended by NT saints as we see on each Sabbath in Acts 15:21 and Acts 13 and Acts 21.

    We also see it in Romans 11 as both Jew and Gentile are grafted into the same vine of Christ - one body, one church, one Lord one Baptism.

    We see it in Heb 11 as the saints of all ages are included in the One Gospel of Salvation.

    We see it in Rev 12 as the ONE church in all ages - pre-cross and post-cross is depicted as the pure and holy "woman". They are all called "saints" in that chapter and they all "Keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus".

    We see it in 1Thess 4 as these "saints of all ages" who have died are ALL called "The Dead in Christ" and are all raised at the return of Christ.

    Certainly in Acts 15 we see the entire NT church submitted to one earthly authority - the council in Jerusalem of all Apostles and leading Jewish Christians.

    But you keep referring to the "heavenly Universal Church" (one that we see in the context of Heb 12 I assume) - so I think you are pushing for "more" than just the saints living on earth as we see in the examples outside of Heb 12.

    What are you "really" driving at when you say "I believe such Heavenly Universal Church better be discussed on this thread"

    Surely you are not talking about praying to the dead are you?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  19. BobRyan

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    I "cautiously" agree with this - not knowing where you are going with it...

    I consider that ALL the saints on earth living today are memebers of the body of Christ, members of what we call the "mystical church" of God that is universal - the "one Fold" of Christ vs those who are outside of Christ and so are not saved.

    But I don't believe that any one "denomination" has all the saints.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. Eliyahu

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    Nope ! You know I oppose to those ideas vehemently !


    But look at this Eph 2:

    20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit .

    John 14

    2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you . 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also

    Why does it take so long to build the place? Could He not build it up in 6 Days?
    What He is building is the New Jerusalem which is formed of Born Again Believers. We must understand what God is doing now.

    Local churches are important where Baptism and Lord's Supper are performed, and Paul was mentioning the offices for the local churches. But on the other hand he didn't forget about the whole.

    Acts 7:
    38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us :


    Replacing churches with Assembly doesn't make difference.

    We do have the Heavenly Universal Church where all local churches and all born again believers belong to.

    Excommunication from a local church doesn't mean the excommunication from the Salvation, from the heavenly Universal Church.
     

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