Election and Calvanism

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Phillip, Dec 9, 2004.

  1. Phillip

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    Dr. Bob, I am actually curious to know more about your thoughts on this matter, but everybody elses too.

    I wrote this in response to a couple of your posts implying heavy Calvanism.

    Okay, I have no problem with the total depravity of man.

    I have no problem with the fact that man can do nothing except present the gospel to mankind and allow God to work. God is responsible for the conversion of the spirit, not man--nor nothing man can do can make a difference.

    Now, here is my question. "Election".

    Do you feel this is based on the "foreknowledge" of God, since obviously he stands outside of the time/universe world we live within.

    We know that God knows who will be saved and who will not be saved.

    But, how far do your beliefs of "election" go?

    Let me put this in another question. If God has pre-ordained and elected the people he wants to go to heaven, they are going to go whether or not we witness. Why do we bother?

    I'm a little confused on this final point of "election" regarding Calvanism.

    My thoughts have always been that it is based on fore-knowledge and although God knows WHAT will happen, it is up to us to reach everybody that we can with the gospel. The Holy Spirit then convicts and the person either accepts the "invitation" or rejects the "invitation".

    The fact that God already knows does not negate our responsibility for missions.

    What say you? Can you clarify this for me.
     
  2. superdave

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    Romans 8:29 " For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. "

    They could be two separate ideas. God knows who his sheep are, because he chose them.

    We witness because it is commanded, and clearly it is the method of bringing the message of the gospel to the world. The elect will accept Christ, but they will accept him upon hearing the truth, and being moved by the Holy Spirit.

    (I think I am safe in speaking for Dr. Bob here) I do not, nor does Dr. Bob believe that those who God pre-ordained and elected will go to heaven without ever hearing the witness of believers. There is no salvation by osmosis. the foolishness of preaching is the way God has chosen to spread his Word.

    Look in Romans, "And how shall they hear without a preacher"

    This is not a refutation of predestination, but a simple statement of fact. God is using men to spread the good news.

    that doesn't in any way set aside the theological truth the God is in control, and ultimately his will will be done.

    What you are describing is not Calvinism, but Hyper-Calvinism. I have not met anyone who actually holds that position, since it seems to run in contrast to the scriptures. We have to witness, God has to do the work in the heart, and when that happens, men will choose Christ. And the glory will be all Gods, since its his work in me that makes me able to share the truth, and his work in the lives of others to enable them to accept his grace.
     
  3. OldRegular

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    I am not Dr. Bob but I will present some information I have gathered on Election.

    God in His omniscience knew beforehand that Adam and Eve would choose evil, choose sin and death rather than life and righteous obedience, thereby taking upon themselves the sin nature, becoming slaves to sin, and severing their fellowship with God. Unfortunately through the rebellion of Adam all successive generations of mankind have been heirs to a nature in bondage to sin, also alienated from God and, therefore, subject to the wrath of God. Foreseeing the disobedience of Adam and Eve and the fall of mankind, God the Father, before the foundation of the world, foreknew and chose, out of the mass of humanity, a people to be His own [Ephesians 1:4], thus fulfilling His role in the Covenant of Grace.

    Scripture and theologians frequently use the term ‘election’ to indicate the sovereign choice of God. Scripture speaks of election in three different contexts, only one of which is election unto salvation.

    1. The first context in which the sovereign choice of God is demonstrated is the choice of Israel as a people through which the promised redeemer would come.

    Deuteronomy 7:6,7, KJV
    6. For thou [art] an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that [are] upon the face of the earth.
    7. The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye [were] the fewest of all people:

    Such election is not associated with personal salvation as shown in the following passage.

    Romans 9:6,7, KJV
    6. Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:
    7. Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.


    2. The second context in which the sovereign choice of God is demonstrated is vocational.

    God called Aaron and his descendants out of the tribe of Levi to be priests but not all were called to salvation. Jesus Christ called twelve men to be apostles but only eleven of them were chosen to salvation.

    3. The third context in which the sovereign choice of God is demonstrated is election unto salvation: God the Father Chooses a People For His Own.

    Scripture teaches that God the Father chooses or elects those who, in Jesus Christ, will be saved. That choice or election is the role of God the Father in the Covenant of Grace. Those who are chosen in Jesus Christ will become the Saints, the ‘true believers’.

    The Apostle Paul, writing to the Saints at Ephesus, summarizes this doctrine as follows:

    Ephesians 1:3-6, KJV
    3. Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
    4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
    5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
    6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

    What does Scripture mean when it teaches that God has chosen us in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world? We look again at the statement He chose us in Him [that is, Jesus Christ] that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love.

    James P. Boyce, cofounder and first president of the Southern Baptist Seminary, defines election unto salvation as follows [Abstract of Systematic Theology , page 347]:

    “God, of His own purpose, has from eternity determined to save a definite number of mankind as individuals, not for or because of any merit or works of theirs, nor of any value of them to Him; but of His own good pleasure”.

    John L. Dagg in his Manual of Theology [page 309] defines election to salvation simply as:

    “All who will finally be saved, were chosen to salvation by God the Father, before the foundation of the world, and given to Jesus Christ in the Covenant of Grace.”

    John I. Packer, an Anglican theologian, writes about the doctrine of election as follows [Concise Theology , page 149; see also the New Geneva Bible, page 1784]

    “The biblical doctrine of election is that before Creation God selected out of the human race, foreseen as fallen, those whom He would redeem, bring to faith, justify, and glorify in and through Jesus Christ. This divine choice is an expression of free and sovereign grace, for it is unconstrained and unconditional, not merited by anything in those who are its subjects. God owes sinners no mercy of any kind, only condemnation; so it is a wonder, and a matter for endless praise, that He should choose to save any of us; and doubly so when His choice involved the giving of His own Son to suffer as sin bearer for the elect.”

    W. T. Conner, a professor at the Southwestern Baptist Theological seminary early in the 20th century writes of election as follows [Christian Doctrine , page 155]:

    “It [Election] means that God has decreed to bring certain ones, upon whom His heart has been eternally set, who are the objects of His eternal love, to faith in Jesus Christ as Saviour. When a man is saved he is not saved as a matter of chance or accident or fate; he is saved in pursuance of an eternal purpose of God. God saves man because He intends to. He saves a particular man, at a particular time, under a particular set of circumstances, because He intends to.”

    We look now at the Scriptural basis for the above statements of the doctrine of election to salvation. The Scriptural basis for election follows the method presented by John Dagg, page 309ff:

    1. God has a people that He has elected or chosen to salvation. [1 Peter 2:9; Romans 8:33; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; Acts 13:48, KJV; John 6:65]

    2. Election is by the sovereign grace of God. [Romans 9:15,16; 2 Timothy 1:9; Ephesians 1:5]

    3. Election is not of works. [2 Timothy 1:9; Romans 9:10,11; Romans 11:5,6]

    4. The election of grace is from eternity. [Ephesians 1:4; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2]

    5. Election is not on the basis of foreseen faith. [Ephesians 1:4; Ephesians 2:8-10; Romans 12:3]

    6. Election is according to the foreknowledge of God. [1 Peter 1:2]

    From the above Scripture we see that election is indeed according to the Sovereign Grace and Purpose of God. These Scripture show the necessity of the Sovereignty of God’s Grace in Salvation. Without Election no one would be saved. The Second London Confession of Faith of 1689 states concerning the natural state of man [Lumpkin, page 264]:

    “Man by his fall into a state of sin hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation: so as a natural man, being altogether adverse from good, and dead in sin is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself; or to prepare himself thereunto.”

    Dagg [page 322] comments on the natural man’s inability regarding salvation, as follows:

    “Every proposed method of salvation that leaves the issue dependent on human volition is defective. It has always been found that men will not come to Christ for life. The Gospel is preached to every creature; but all, with one consent, ask to be excused. The will of man must be changed; and this change the will cannot itself effect. Divine grace must here interpose. Unless God works in the sinner to will and to do, salvation is impossible.”

    Herein has been briefly described the doctrine of election, a most precious doctrine that magnifies the Sovereign Grace of God, a doctrine that was once the bedrock of Baptist beliefs but in recent years has come into disrepute. God’s purpose in election is summarized once again by referring to the passages from Romans and Ephesians:.

    Romans 8:28-30, KJV
    28. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
    29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
    30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

    Ephesians 1:3-6, KJV
    3. Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
    4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
    5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
    6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
     
  4. Rich_UK

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    Agreed with the above. God has chosen to use man to spread the gospel. God didn't need man, as God doesn't need anyone, but He has chosen with His sovereign will to work this way.

    Election is taught in the bible, theres definetley no escaping that. Just what type of election is taught though? Election based on Foreknowledge of our "making a decision for Christ" ....or....Election based on Gods good pleasure and His will, alone.

    Question is this: Can man, in and of himself, choose what is spiritually good? Bearing in mind he is spiritually dead from birth. Can a man whos physically dead make a decision that is physical, such as choosing to make himself physically alive? No.

    Rom 8:7 the sinful mind[6] is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.

    We simply cannot choose God. If God based His election on whether we would choose Him or not, without any spiritual help, then not one person would be saved. I don't find election based on Gods foreknowledge of us making a "decision for Christ" found anywhere in the bible.

    Did God choose Paul on the road to damascus because Paul was gearing himself up to follow Christ? I think not. Pauls heart was set against the things of God. It took Gods intervention for Paul to follow Christ. God could have done the same thing with Pilate but He chose not to. Why? Because He is sovereign.

    A lot of people get the impression that Gods election cannot be based on His soveriegnty alone because its as if the whole world is standing on the edge of a cliff and He's pushing some off (to destruction), while holding others back.
    Wrong.

    The whole world has already jumped off and is heading for destruction and from His good pleasure and will, He has chosen to catch some. Who are we to question the gift he bestowes...He can surely choose who he wants.

    Thats my take.
     
  5. Dr. Bob

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    Moved to forum for discussion on Calvinism issues. There is a lot of traffic there! I try to avoid it, but will come by and share.

    Promise!

    As to election, all men were condemned justly by their sin to eternal hell. God, for no forseen merit (we have none) and for no other purpose than by His free grace alone (we could deserve none) selected for Himself a people to be the recipients of His favor.

    Why me? No, He didn't base it on foreknowing I would accept Him. I COULDN'T (go back to Romans 1-3 and see if YOU could do ANYTHING). He based it on His sovereign love alone.

    So today about 100 million people on earth profess to be "born again by faith alone" and we would say they are saved. There are 6.3 billion on earth.

    1/63 by their own testimony are going to heaven (1.7%). And with these long odds, God chose ME. THAT, my friend, is God's choice.

    I no longer say, "Why me?" I simply say, "Thank you, Father, for choosing me!"
     
  6. Bro. James

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    Amen to Election by God--Him only.

    Another point: the names were written in The Book of Life before the foundation of the world.

    Thank the Lord for His Sovereign Grace.

    Selah,

    Bro. James
     
  7. pinoybaptist

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    Phillip:

    Dr. Bob has his own answers, allow me to interpose mine.

    &lt;quote&gt;
    Rev. 13:8 -

    And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the &lt;b&gt;book of life&lt;/b&gt; of the Lamb &lt;b&gt;slain from the foundation of the world.&lt;/b&gt;

    &lt;/quote&gt;

    This verse says the Lamb (which is no other than Jesus Christ, of course) was slain from before the foundation of the world, and that the book of life was His book.
    &lt;quote&gt;
    Rev. 17:8
    The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, &lt;b&gt;whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world,&lt;/b&gt; when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. &lt;/quote&gt;

    This verse places the time frame of when the book of life was written and the names of God's elect written in it. Before the foundation of the world.

    It also gives the reason as to why they will believe the anti-Christ, called the beast, anti-Christ meaning a counter-Christ, a counterfeit Christ, a Christ of humanism, if you will, instead of the sovereign, almighty Christ of the Bible. Because their names are not in the Book of Life.

    &lt;quote&gt;
    Rev. 20:15 -

    &lt;b&gt;And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.&lt;/b&gt;

    &lt;/quote&gt;

    Compare the above with Romans 8:29-30, quoted below:

    &lt;quote&gt;
    For whom he did &lt;b&gt;foreknow, he also did predestinate &lt;/b&gt;to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
    8:30
    Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
    &lt;/b&gt;
    &lt;/quote&gt;

    And to this conversation which took place in eternity past given thru the mouth of David:

    &lt;quote&gt;
    1 Now these be the last words of David. David the son of Jesse said, and the man who was raised up on high, the anointed of the God of Jacob, and the sweet psalmist of Israel, said,

    2 The Spirit of the LORD spake by me, and his word was in my tongue.

    3 &lt;b&gt;The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me,&lt;/b&gt; He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God.

    4 And he shall be as the light of the morning, when the sun riseth, even a morning without clouds; as the tender grass springing out of the earth by clear shining after rain.

    5 Although my house be not so with God; yet he hath made with me an everlasting covenant, ordered in all things, and sure: for this is all my salvation, and all my desire, although he make it not to grow.

    &lt;/quote&gt;

    verse one identifies David as the speaker, verse 2 David identifies the true Speaker, verse 3 identifies the God of Israel who is also the Rock of Israel (1 Corinthians 10:4), verse 4 delineates the character of the Rock, just and ruling in the fear of God (and Christ walked this earth setting an example of what the fear of God is to His disciples), verse 5 tells the character of His house, made up of imperfect men, but EVEN SO, God made with the Son an everlasting covenant, sure and firm.

    This election and covenant to save the elect was based entirely on God's mercy (Titus 3:5) and not on the theology of the elect, or the strength of their faith, or the extent of their knowledge of God and Jesus' Deity and Humanity.

    The gospel is the GOOD NEWS to God's elect, not to humankind, that THEIR salvation, as decreed and covenanted from eternity past, is finished.
     
  8. pinoybaptist

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    I apologize for the confusing way my post was made. I keep forgetting the rules of UBB and HTML are not the same.

    Also, the quote about the everlasting covenant may be found at 2 Samuel 23:1-7.
     
  9. Rich_UK

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    I thought you just had a fondness for the word "quote" ;)
     
  10. johnp.

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    Hello Phillip. I'm not Bob either.

    It has been know for God to do the witnessing. To Adam, Moses and some of the others.
    The info needs to be in our head before the Holy Spirit moves us. Only those that hear have a chance. God determines who does and who does not hear and He also determines their reaction.
    If election is based on God's foreknowledge of what a man will do that would be like saying that the man elected himself. Elections don't happen like that, no jokes about Bush! It changes the meaning of the word election.

    I do not believe this. That is philosophy not scripture. Maybe another time for that?

    Because: Eph 1:4 ...He chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will.
    He knows what is going to happen because: EPH 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.
    He knows the end from the beginning. ISA 46:10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.
    That means He don't have to go and look to see because He causes it to come about.

    Eph 1:4 For He chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will.
    That far.

    Yes because you are not accepting the word's meaning. elect: 3 : chosen as an object of divine mercy of favor : set apart for eternal life -- used in theology
    Selected. Chosen.

    Responsibility sounds like a work to me. Better if it is said that I want to partake of the blessings of the gospel. We save no sheep nor do we lose any but we can be part of the round up. Or we can sit with our feet up and do nothing. Moses had his feet up for forty years before God had him prepared.
    It's God that works through us. Wait on Him and in the meantime whatever your hand finds to do do it with all your might.

    Hello superdave.

    Too far. You forget the babies?

    Hello Rich_UK

    Maybe it's because I'm a Londoner..........
    Born and dragged up in Bermondsey I was. I miss me jellied eels mate.

    johnp.
     
  11. johnp.

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  12. Rich_UK

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    Hiya Johnp, nice to meet you mate.
    I was born in hammersmith and raised in the northwest london area. Queens park, kilburn etc. Moved around a bit. Harlesden, Alperton,Archway. even Canada etc.Now living in willesden green.
    Never tasted Jellied eels...I hear they're, um,....an aquired taste ;) .. Never turned down a bit of pie, mash and licker tho. Mmmmm. QPR fan. Went to watch QPR vs Millwall the other week. 1-1 .. Millwall shoulda won tho. They've got a good team this year.
    Have a good day mate [​IMG]
     
  13. Wes Outwest

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    I wonder if perhaps the word Election has a different meaning than you are willing to accept.

    God established from before the foundation of the world that man's salvation would be through man's faith in God, and the Scriptures are chock full of the evidence that FAITH is the KEY.

    Election then could very well be established to mean that all who have faith are elected by God to be written in the Lambs Book of Life.

    God gives us all a level playing field by providing first His laws that apply equally to all. Then he gave us his son who told us, "that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. Then God's son died to Atone for sins, that is, to pay the penalty that we all face, ONCE FOR ALL of us. This atonement cleared the way for man to actually have everlasting life, even though ALL men have sinned.

    When one believes, that is, comes to faith in God the Son, the one's name is written in the Lambs Book of Life thus making the one "an elect" Just as God planned and established before the foundation of the world. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish (die) but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."

    God loved the whole world and gave his son for the whole world so that the whole world through him might be saved. That sums up the whole argument! There is no separate "elect" from the foundation of the world. It was not in God's plan!
     
  14. Southern

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    Wes,
    God did not just choose a mere "plan" and leave it to the whims of sinful human beings who would have lacked the ability to come to him (John 6:44).Not only did God choose the means of salvation (belief in the Gospel), He also chose the individuals so that they "would" believe:'


    John 6:37 says that those given to Jesus by the Father are the ones that "come" (believe) on Him. Not believe and "then" the Father will give you to the Son.

    Acts 13:48 says that all those appointed to eternal life "believed". Not believe and then become appointed.

    Rom. 8:28- says that those who are "predestined" are the ones who are justified. Not justified and then predestined.

    John 10:27 says that the sheep (elect) are the ones that "hear" His voice and follow Him. You have to be a sheep to "believe". Not believe to become a sheep.

    2 Thess. 2:13 says we were chosen to "believe". Not believe to be chosen.

    Conclusion- This was a plan alright, a plan that was sure to be a success! (Eph. 1:11)

    In Christ...
     
  15. pinoybaptist

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    Cannot be so, wes. See my post above as to WHEN the book of life was written, and when the names of God's elect were written in the book of life.

    Jesus Christ came here for a definite purpose. To save His people from their sins, not to save all humankind.

    Faith is NOT the key to eternal salvation. God gave the gift of eternal life to those whom He has chosen based entirely on His sovereign mercy.

    Human faith, if it is the key to salvation, will be a broken key, fragile and changing as it is.

    Jesus' faith was the faith that the Father honored. His faith is imputed onto His people, just as His righteousness and holiness is imputed onto His people. They are accepted IN THE BELOVED, and only in the Beloved.
     
  16. johnp.

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    Wes.

    What is this love. Explain to me what love can harm it's love?
    Does He love those that sit in Hell? If yes then that is a strange love. Love is a commitment to do no harm. If no then God changes from loving to hating, or from loving to not loving, and He says He changes not. MAL 3:6 "I the LORD do not change."
    1CO 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
    1CO 13:8 Love never fails...


    ..."I have loved you with an everlasting love;...Jer 31:3
    Those that find themselves in Hell could not have been loved with an everlasting love. In fact they could not have been loved at all.

    If, as you say, sin is now cancelled out by the death of Christ then why is the law still in force for all those not saved?
    Romans 6:14; 6:15; Gal 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
    This means that if you are not led by the Spirit then you are under law.

    johnp.
     
  17. johnp.

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    Wes.

    For a politician to be elected he must be electable. He must have something that the people want. A quality or policy that people desire.
    The same would apply to God. There would be something about those He elects that make them different, something that He regards as worthy. Would you agree with that?
    To be written into the book would mean you are different from those that were not.
    The question then arises on who made you to be different?

    If as you say it is belief, as apposed to unbelief, that allows us into Heaven then election has no part to play in salvation.

    johnp.
     
  18. Wes Outwest

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    Try this on for size,
    So, which elect do you wish to apply

    What if God set up the election and placed himself on the ballot among other gods. We the people are the voters. Who does the "electing"? Is it not "our choice" to determine who will "govern" us?

    Consider this natural life the polling place for your eternal Governor. Choose you this day whom you will serve. Man, that's election!
     
  19. Wes Outwest

    Wes Outwest
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    Johnp,
    Love gives those who have failed the opportunity to be redeemed. God does that for man by giving man His only begotten son to pay the penalty that sin brought with it...death! That is Love, give that which you cherish for those that you love. Jesus, the Gift of God's grace to man. However, God does not force us to accept the gift, we have to "receive the gift" for it to be ours. If you give your wife a grand gift, and she refuses it, has the gift really been given? No, it is not given (past tense) until it is received.

    As for Love, You cannot give your love to another! You can love another, but the only means you have of showing the other your love is through the giving of gifts. You cannot lop off a chunk of your love and give it, but you can give gifts that demonstrate your love. When the other picks up on your motivations, they in turn give gifts that tell you that they love you in return. These gifts may be nothing more that a longing glance or a soft spoken word, or a flower, or "a box of chocolates", all of which are "tokens" of your feelings toward the other. God gave us His only begotten son as a token of how much He loves us. The Son's mission is stated in John 3:17 "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved." And how is one to have salvation? (Paraphrase) "For by grace ARE YE SAVED THROUGH FAITH, and not of yourselves, salvation is a gift of God, not of works that we do lest any man should boast"

    Those in hell missed their opportunity to be saved, by not receiving the Son of God through faith! Thus, they condemned themselves just as Jesus said in John 3:18b.

    I did not say that sin is canceled out! I said that the penalty of sin is canceled out! The law remains in force for those who refuse to accept the new covenant of Grace. However, it remains FAITH and FAITH ALONE whereby man is saved by God.
     
  20. whatever

    whatever
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    So, which elect do you wish to apply

    What if God set up the election and placed himself on the ballot among other gods. We the people are the voters. Who does the "electing"? Is it not "our choice" to determine who will "govern" us?

    Consider this natural life the polling place for your eternal Governor. Choose you this day whom you will serve. Man, that's election!
    </font>[/QUOTE]I'll take #4. I like 8 and 10 too. I'm not sure why they weren't bold, though, like 1, 2 and 3.
     

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