Election and Repentance

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by skypair, Jan 26, 2008.

  1. skypair

    skypair
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    Hey all,

    This OP is to show the disconnect between the OT "ensample" of salvation and the Calvinist perversion thereof.

    But this is probably a good place to "finish what I started" on another thread. You see, those of the "doctrine of election" -- according as they understand how they gain spiritual "sight" enough to repent --- would have to take a rather perverse view of the OT tabernacle/temple salvation model.

    The ensample: Here's how salvation was supposed to go --- The believer brings his sacrifice to the gate of the temple. It is presented to the priest and laid on the burning altar in place of the sinner. This is the part that we in the NT call dying and buried with Jesus.

    Then the priest goes to the next "station" just outside the holy place, the laver, and washes his feet. This coincides with us washing our feet of the world in repentance. Do you see these 2 things as necessary before entering into the holy place? Before dwellling with God?

    Then he takes the sacrifice into the holy place of regeneration -- dwelling with God and His Spirit. There the light of the menora/Spirit is shed on the bread of life (shewbread/scripture) and the altar of incense is there where our prayers proceed to God "inside the veil."

    The perversion: But what "doctrine of election" people apparently see (their insistence on reading 1Cor 2:14, etal. the way they do) is that they, being "elect" already, are ushered into the holy place where they receive the indwelling without first making the sacrifice. They confirm this notion by insisting they cannot/DON'T "do" anything to "merit" God's grace in salvation (True statement, wrong application. There was an answer to "what must we do," Acts 2:38, but they claim NOTHING --- they are in the holy place already.).

    So "do" is the critical word. They neither need to exchange their own life with their Sacrifice as a sign of belief and obedience nor to repent in order to enter into an indwelling relationship with God. As they sit in their pews and imagine they understand and agree with the scriptures, they believe they are "elect" -- meaning "chosen of God" -- already.

    Afterward, we see many of them going through the "maintenance" sacrifices and repentance that were required year after year for sins. But remember -- in these the sacrifice bears the "blame" whereas in the original salvation sacrifice, the "scapegoat" bears the "blame" and is sent out to the ends of the earth but the "exchanged" life was taken into the holy place.

    Anyway, many claim that I don't understand. Bottom line -- I understand them but I don't believe. And they do. That's what really riles them.

    skypair
     
    #1 skypair, Jan 26, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 26, 2008
  2. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001
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    Hi Skypair,

    It is still clear you don't understand. :)

    Keep trying though. Someday you may get it. A clock that no longer runs is right 2 times a day, so if you keep guessing without listening, you still have hope to get it right. But....on the other hand....why not just take a Calvinist word for it. Stop telling us what we believe is a start. Just a idea.
     
  3. skypair

    skypair
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    Know what, JA...

    ...it just dawned on me today that y'all are Baptists and I been profiling Prebys and Congregationalists (my pre-salvation background). But regardless of how you came to it (election or free will), you came to a decision the believe and took believer's baptism showing it afterward.

    And it's not that I didn't believe you were brothers --- it's that I've said to myself time and again, "How did they find Christ through what I've seen and read of Calvinism."

    I mean, even in baptism itself is the picture of death before life -- death before regeneration/rebirth. And so why does someone "die" in the first place? My Bible says for the hope of a new life in Christ and heaven in eternity.

    But I tell you I am much consoled by the thought that y'all came to Christ and died to be reborn (which you testified by your baptisms). :jesus: Maybe I ought to take my "shtick" to a Presby board, eh? :laugh:

    skypair
     
  4. MB

    MB
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    Hi Skypair,
    JA says
    I suspect that the reason we never understand is because the day we do we will think and believe just like them. For them to admit that you do understand, would mean you could undestand, and still not believe. To them,,,,, understanding is believing, and as long as you don't believe, you'll never understand. :laugh:
    MB
     
  5. skypair

    skypair
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    My brothers used to say that to my dad, as well. Know why? Because they didn't want to obey him.

    To some extent, they also suspected that my dad hated them as well. I guess that is what you get when you actually believe that God hates much of His creation.

    I just listened to a Dr Rogers sermon yesterday on how not to get deceived by Satan. I'm sure we have all heard various iterations of the Gen 3 dialogue between Eve and the serpent. AR said the serpent did 3 things to change the heart of Eve.

    1) Made her think "severely" of God -- that He didn't really love her as much as He could/should ("Did God say not to eat ANY of the fruit in the garden?")

    2) Made her think "sceptically" about God -- that He wasn't to be trusted as in when He says He loves all the world or that we can choose Him. ("Did God truely say...?)

    3) Made Eve think "suspiciously" about God -- like she should get her information about God from someone else. ("You shall not surely die.").

    Though our protagonists have a good testimony, they've "grown up" very like my real brothers did listening to peers instead of their father.

    skypair
     
  6. MB

    MB
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    Sometimes fathers hate their children when their children will not do as they are told. They get so fed up with trying to teach them the right way to live, only to see them live like hell. Before I was saved my father and I didn't or, should I say wouldn't agree on a thing. Seems almost unbelievable now that I'm much older, that he seemed to grow much smarter, than he was before I was saved. I didn't really know that he loved me until he apologized to me for being so hard on me. Truth is if he hadn't been rough on me, I would most likely still be lost.
    What other might think pressures us all more than we know. I believe I would have been saved much earlier than I was had I not been so concerned with what others thought. This is what happens when man relys on other men instead of God.

    I have a pastor and I listen to what he says up to a point, that point being God's word. If what he says doesn't line up with scripture I discuss it with him later and if it never lines up I find a new pastor.

    MB
     
  7. skypair

    skypair
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    My case exactly! Within a months of being saved, I heard a sermon on authority and realized that my dad loved me and was only doing the best he could do with who he had to work with.

    Seems almost unbelievable now that I'm much older, that he seemed to grow much smarter, than he was before I was saved. I didn't really know that he loved me until he apologized to me for being so hard on me. Truth is if he hadn't been rough on me, I would most likely still be lost.

    Amen.

    There's no perfect church (just like no perfect dad). We always have to look to the Father and for the church that is most nearly what we need.

    skypair
     

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