Election of 1860

Discussion in 'History Forum' started by Salty, Jun 18, 2012.

  1. Salty

    Salty
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    Many folks love to mention that Lincoln won as a new minor party candidate back in 1860.

    But what most of them fail to mention is that the Democratic party was split into 3 factions. In fact, Lincoln won just under 40% of the popular vote. But with the winner-take-all system of the Electoral College - the Republican Party ended up with 60% of the EC.

    So here is my question. If the Dems would have had a unified candidate in 1860, chances are they would have won the POTUS. If so, it is apparent the War of Between the States would not have begun - at least then. If not in 1860, would the War have been delayed until '64 or '68.
    How else do you think history would have been changed?

    Salty

    PS - Bonus Question - Who did Dr Bob vote for in 1860
     
  2. ktn4eg

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    We might not have had the first income tax?
     
  3. billwald

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    Lincoln's War would never have happened. Slavery would have disappear without a war as it has in every civilized nation. Why? Because slave labor is economically inefficient. It is cheaper to hire poor free people and keep them poor. How to keep them poor? By preventing labor unions the poor people will fight their way to the bottom of the food chain.

    History demonstrates this system "works." In the pre-industrial times when most people were serfs every person in the serf family had to work to stay alive.

    After the start of the industrial revolution there were laws imposed against child labor because of the accident rate but both parents had to work while the children ran free on the city streets. This is one of the reasons why public schools were invented.

    The industrialists fought the labor unions and employed private armies (Pinkerton's, etc.) as strike breakers. Labor unions did not gain traction until WW2.

    Before WW2 is was socially low class for women to work in an industrial environment. WW2 made it socially acceptable for women to do factory work because it was "patriotic." While the men were over seas the women pulled down enough factory pay to pay the bills.

    After the troops came home, the upper class (new middle class) women stayed home to produce and raise the post war population increase. The men made enough to pay the bills because the community wage goal was was set by union contracts. Some women, my mother, worked part or full time to buy luxuries.

    Human greed took control and the new luxuries (big house is the suburbs) became the new minimum acceptable standard of living. This was fine with our industrialist owners because the rich got richer financing the new cars and houses. Credit cards were invented to give the working class access to credit which enslaved the working class (now thinking they are middle class) into financing their new toys. Our owners, the bankers, made more profit off the credit charges than by financing US manufacturing businesses.

    The businesses and their bankers realized more profit could be generated by sending jobs off shore and breaking the unions. 19th century, here we come.

    Our new 19th century economy is invisible to those who still have decent jobs. Why? Because the dole is distributed by debit card instead of having people stand in lines. With 2 people working in most households one person pays the mortgage and the other, food, energy/transportation, and clothing. If one person in the family loses their job, the bank steals their house BUT the remaining person can still pay for rent in an apartment or subsidized housing and buy the food.
     
  4. mandym

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    Hmmm, I wonder if those who were actually slaves would feel the way you do.
     
  5. General Mung Beans

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    Knowing Dr. Bob but I'll be chartiable and say Stephen Douglas (since while arguing slavery isn't inherently immoral even race-based slavery he does seems to personally dislike it).

    BTW, while Lincoln won only 40% of the vote so what? The Democratic states didn't secede from the Union when Gore won the popular vote but lost the EC. The South were being basically immature brats who refused every sort of compromise or tampering of slave power. What the Southern states demanded in exchange for not seceding including things like full tolerance of slavery in all territories which was advocated by only one candidate-John Breckinridge with 14% of the vote.

    I urge people to read this: http://www.trinityfoundation.org/journal.php?id=256
     
  6. billwald

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    >Hmmm, I wonder if those who were actually slaves would feel the way you do.

    What do black Baptists think?
     
  7. Salty

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    So are you saying that Black baptists and Balck Catholics would have different answers?
     
  8. LadyEagle

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    We would not have had a civil war if Lincoln had lost. He was no hero because he usurped States Rights and it has spiraled downward away from the US Constitution ever since. :tear:
     
  9. Jerome

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    Huh?

    Lincoln secured a majority of the popular vote in all but two of the states he won. If you combine all the losers' totals together, Lincoln still wins—losing only CA (just 4 electoral votes) and OR (3).
     
  10. General Mung Beans

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    We would not have had a Civil War either if the South hadn't seceded.
     
  11. Salty

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    But....
    Lincoln only had a majority in only about 13 States or Commonwealths. In the other 15, a unified Democrat would have probally won. And the EC would have been extremly close.
     
  12. Jerome

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    Nope. Lincoln won with a majority in 15 states with 169 electoral votes (just 152 were needed to win). Even if you combine all the losers in the other states, they would only reach 134 electoral votes.
     
  13. General Mung Beans

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    If there had been an unified Democratic opposition it might very well not have secured a majority since it would obviously need to address the question of slavery in the territories and adopting the popular soverignty plank of Douglas would be a lot of Southerners would stay home while accepting all slavery in territories would mean many moderate Democrats would go Republican.
     
  14. billwald

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    Lincoln nullified the principles enumerated in the Declaration of Independence. The Confederacy should have been permitted to withdraw from the USA.
     
  15. Salty

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    Bill, it doesnt happen often, but on this I do agree with you.
     
  16. Squire Robertsson

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    Folks: we need to remember the issue was settled at Appomattox Court House.

    IMHO, the South should have carried out its threats to secede in the 1820s. Instead, they caved in to Jackson.
     
  17. Salty

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    I did not remember that from US History class
     
  18. NaasPreacher (C4K)

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    Ah yes, the Nullification Crisis. Can you imagine a President John C Calhoun? :)
     
  19. ktn4eg

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    The South wasn't the first region to consider secession.

    During the War of 1812 (whose bicentennial we are now starting to observe), there were several elements of the populations of the New England states who wished to secede, due primarily to the disasterous effects that the war (and some policies leading up to it) had on their shipping-based economy.

    Try Goggling "Hartford Convention," and you'll see what I mean.

    Yep, dem Yankees tried it first! Us Southerners just took it a bit farther a couple decades later. :smilewinkgrin:
     
  20. LadyEagle

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    We will rise again, but probably not in my lifetime. :laugh:

    PS: My avatar is a Dixie flag in disguise, LOL.
     

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