Election Question

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by Judith, Mar 7, 2014.

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  1. Judith

    Judith
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    I realize that some hold to election and some do not and some are in the middle. My question is if election means certain people are pre-ordained unto salvation does that mean that those who are not the elect are pre-ordained unto damnation?
     
  2. JamesL

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    What do you mean "salvation" ??

    If you mean "saved from hell" or "go to heaven", election has nothing to do with that.

    Biblical Election is that some, not all, believers will be conformed to Christ's image through suffering.

    For Christ's own teaching on Election, read Mark 10:35-40

    It goes very deep, and steps on a lot of Protestant toes
     
  3. Grasshopper

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    Everyone should hold to some view of election since it is a biblical teaching.

    Here is a quote from RC Sproul I found that answers the question:

    Given that the bible teaches both election and particularism, we cannot avoid the subject of double predestination. The question then is not if predestination is double, but how it is double. There are different views of double predestion. One of them is so frightening that many shun altogether the use of the term double predestion. This scary view is called equal ultimacy, and is based on a symmetrical view of predestion. It sees a symmetry between the work of God in election and his work in reporbation. It seeks and exact balance between the two. Just as God intervenes in the lives of the elect to create faith in their hearts, so he similarly intervenes in the hearts of the reporbate to work unbelief. The later in inferred from biblical passages that speak of God's hardening people's hearts.

    Classical Reformed theology rejects the doctrine of equal ultimacy. Thought some have labeled this doctrine "hyper-Calvinism" I perfer to call it "sub-Calvinism," or even more precisely, "anti-Calvinism." Though Calvinism certainly holds to a kind of double predestination, it does not embrace equal ultimacy. The Reformed view makes a crucial distinction between God's positive and negitive decrees. God positively decrees the election of some and he negatibely decrees the reprobation of others. The difference between positive and negative does not refer to the outcome (though the outcome indeed is either positive or negitive), but to the manner by which God brings his decrees to pass in history.

    The postive side refers to God's active intervention in the lives of the elect to work faith in their hearts. The negative refers, not to God's working unbelief in the hearts of the reporbate, but simply to his passing them by and withholding his regenerating grace from them.
     
  4. Iconoclast

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    Here is the truth as expressed in A Baptist Catechism with Commentary by W.R.Downing

    see also;
    http://www.founders.org/library/dagg_vol1/bk7c4.html#sec1
     
    #4 Iconoclast, Mar 7, 2014
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  5. Judith

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    Thank you for the reply. Would it be fair to say that Judas was elect or predestined for what he did and finally went to hell because of that election?
     
    #5 Judith, Mar 7, 2014
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  6. Judith

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    I have to admit that your understanding of this is totally new to me. I have never heard of anyone with this view.
     
  7. Judith

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    RC is usualy hard fr me to understand, but I do understand the last paragraph. So if we take what he says as true wouldn't it also be true that people are elect to hell by abensence or withholding?
     
  8. Iconoclast

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    30 Reprobate silver shall men call them, because the Lord hath rejected them.

    THE doctrine of Election is intimately associated with and involves that of Reprobation. The latter has met with even greater opposition, and misconstructions of what the orthodox teach on this subject have been even more numerous.

    The Scriptural statements as to Reprobation are that God, in eternity, when he elected some, did likewise not elect others; that as resulting from this non-election, but not as efficiently caused by it, he passes by these in the bestowment of the special favours shown to the Elect, and, as in like manner yet further resulting, condemns men, because of sin to everlasting destruction, and while they are in the state of sin and condemnation, he effects or permits the hardening of their heart, so that his truth is not appreciated, but actually rejected.

    According to this statement there are four points involved in the decrees as to Reprobation:

    1. The decree not to elect.

    2. The decree to pass by in bestowing divine grace.

    3. To condemn for sins committed.

    4. To harden against the truth all or some persons, already sinners, and to confirm them in sin.

    In considering this doctrine we are met by the difficulty arising from the want of knowledge of God's purpose in action. It may he questioned whether we can arrive at this at all; yet to understand this subject fully, we must know that purpose. If, therefore, we cannot learn it, we see with what propriety we must submit simply to accept what God says.

    here is that link;
    http://www.founders.org/library/boyce1/ch30.html
     
    #8 Iconoclast, Mar 7, 2014
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  9. Iconoclast

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    Judas was never elected unto salvation.....election unto service does not equal salvation although they were many times co-extensive.

    In the discussion of election some will bring up in discussion reprobation.
    Dagg=
    acts1;
    16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.

    17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.

    18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.

    19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.

    20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

    jn17;
    12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
    __________________
     
  10. OldRegular

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    The Apostle Paul, writing to the Saints at Ephesus, summarizes the Doctrine of Election as follows:

    Ephesians 1:3-6, KJV
    3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
    4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
    5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
    6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.


    James P. Boyce, cofounder and first president of the Southern Baptist Seminary, defines election to salvation as follows [Abstract of Systematic Theology , page 347]:

    John L. Dagg in his Manual of Theology [page 309] defines election to salvation simply as:

    Dagg’s definition of election is greatly expanded upon in the text of the Manual of Theology and presupposes an understanding of the Covenant of Grace. He does, however, show what Scripture means by the statement chose us in Him [that is, Jesus Christ]. The elect are given to Jesus Christ in the Covenant of Grace, that is they are saved only through the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ as atonement for their sins.

    John I. Packer, an Anglican theologian, writes about the doctrine of election as follows [Concise Theology , page 149; see also the New Geneva Bible, page 1784]

    W. T. Conner, a professor at the Southwestern Baptist Theological seminary early in the 20th century writes of election as follows [Christian Doctrine , page 155]:

     
  11. OldRegular

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    John Dagg in his Manual of Theology, pp 309ff, writes further regarding the Doctrine of Election as follows:

     
  12. Iconoclast

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    solid quotes...great truth
     
  13. JamesL

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    Such a shame. Christ and the apostles held this view. I have no men whom I can quote other than them.

    If you read the last half of Romans 8, which contains that great passage on election and predestination, verse 17 says we are joint-heirs with Christ IF we suffer with Him. The last few verses say "What shall separate us from the love of Christ?" then Paul lists many forms of suffering.

    That should be the first clues that what Paul wrote between those verses is along the same vein. We have been predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ through suffering.

    This is what we were "called" for, because Christ suffered for us, leaving an example for us to follow. This is plainly stated in 1Peter 2:20-21

    Why do you think Christ placed so much emphasis on us picking up our cross?

    Ephesians 1 expounds that we have been predestined for an inheritance. Colossians 3:23 tells us that the inheritance is a reward.

    Since Christ is the heir of all things (Hebrews 1), we would become joint-heirs. That's why Hebrews 2:9-10 says that glory and honor were bestowed upon Christ because he suffered, and that He is bringing many sons to glory, that He is not ashamed to call us brethren.

    We are called to suffer with Him, but not all believers will. Read the parable of the sower, how the second and third soils each received the word. But one fell away immediately, and the other got caught up in the cares of thus world.

    There is so much more in 2Timothy, Matthew 10, Romans 8-11

    Did you read Mark 10:35-40?
     
  14. jbh28

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    The Bible speaks about election, but it doesn't speak about anyone being elected to hell. People go to hell because they are sinners outside of Christ. Those that are believers are the ones that God elected to save before the foundation of the earth.
     
  15. Judith

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    Hello James., thank you for the reply. To answer your last question the answer is yes I did read the Mark passage, but I do not come to the same conclusion as you in regards to that passaage or the others you gave either. Especially not the ones about the sower. I hold them as not/never being Christians. Only one do I hold as a true believer and that is the good soil.

    That being said I do believe that all who are in Christ do suffer, but not all at the same degree. With that, one can conclued that the words of Jesus, (many will say unto me in that day, Lord Lord and He will say I never knew you), are much greater in scope then most think them to be. In other words He really means many!

    In my OP I mentioned election with salvation, not any other area of election such as service or types of suffering. I was seeking an understanding of how to define the lost compared to the saved. That is why I asked if the lost could also be considered elect in a broad sense for their fate much like Judas even though the lost are not normally spoken of as being elect. In other words if one has to be an elect to be saved, doesn't being ignored, left in one's own lost state, constitute a form of election or would that be an incorrect way to define it?
     
    #15 Judith, Mar 7, 2014
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  16. Judith

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    So is it your understanding that God knew who would accept Him and He elected them or that we become the elect at salvation?
     
  17. Iconoclast

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    :wavey::thumbs::wavey::thumbsup:
     
  18. Iconoclast

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    10.2 This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not on account of anything at all foreseen in us. It is not made because of any power or action in us,1 for we are altogether passive in it, we are dead in sins and trespasses until we are made alive and renewed by the Holy Spirit.2 By this [regeneration] we are enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, this power being none other than that which raised up Christ from the dead.3

    (1) 2Ti 1:9; Tit 3:4-5; Eph 2:4-5,8-9; Rom 9:11
    (2) 1Co 2:14; Rom 8:7; Eph 2:5
    (3) Joh 6:37; Eze 36:27; Joh 5:25; Eph 1:19-20
     
  19. Iconoclast

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    JamesL


    Your view is a mistaken novelty.No one holds it because it is wrong.

    You are off track.
     
    #19 Iconoclast, Mar 7, 2014
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  20. Judith

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    A very humbling thought.
     
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