Election?

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Scott_Bushey, Oct 27, 2002.

  1. Scott_Bushey

    Scott_Bushey
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    Having acknowledged the term *ELECTION* biblical, how does the concept occur?

    *In your own words, briefly state how this event takes place.

    Example:
    1) God elects and saves men based on His goodwill alone.
    2) God see's men submitting to Christ and based upon this idea, elects & saves.

    Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
    Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

    Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
     
  2. Scott_Bushey

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    Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
    Isa 42:2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
    Isa 42:3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
    Isa 42:4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

    In contrast to how you view "election" occuring, how did God "elect" Jesus?
     
  3. Terry_Herrington

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    I do not believe in "election" in the way that I understand the calvinists believe it. I have been an independent fundamental baptist for many years and have never met one baptist pastor who believed in calvinism. I believe that anyone who will come to Christ in repentence will be accepted by God.

    I find it hard to believe that there are baptist who really think that some people are destined for hell, regardless of what they do. What a depressing doctrine. Thank God, it is not found in the Scripture, IMO.
     
  4. tyndale1946

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    Scott I have to go with... 1) God elects and saves men based on His goodwill alone... If our Eternal Salvation is not a complete work of God and him alone then we have none... IMHO!... Election is before the act not because of!... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  5. Molly

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    But,Terry...left to our own decision and depravity,would we ever choose Christ? Even our faith in Him is Him working to draw the elect to Himself... those who are drawn to Him are the elect...I believe in God's complete sovereignty over everything,including salvation and I believe in the responsibilty of man that goes along with that. The bible teaches both,but we must accept the fatc that salvation is God working in the hearts of man and we have to give Him credit for our salvation. If we trust in the goodness of God,then what He does is right and just.

    If a man repents,he has been called by God to repent....in our sin nature,we would not repent on our own initiative. It is God at work.

    [ November 04, 2002, 11:40 PM: Message edited by: Molly ]
     
  6. Helen

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    Scott, I think the Romans section starts with verse 28, right?

    And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified..

    "those who love him".... that goes right along with "called according to his purpose."

    And those who love Him are predestined to be conformed to the likeness of His son. They are also those who have been called, justified, and glorified. In other words, as Paul says to the Philippians in 1:6 -- He is faithful to finish the good work He began in us. No one will be left half-done who is His. No one will be justified and not glorified, for instance.

    "those who love Him."

    And although we cannot love except He love us first, we read that He so loved the world that He gave His Son...

    That was His choice. We can choose to love Him back or to ignore His love.

    Thus election becomes a two-way thing and the marriage of the believer and Christ is a true love marriage.

    ==========

    Oh, and God did not 'elect' Jesus. Jesus IS God.

    [ November 04, 2002, 11:41 PM: Message edited by: Helen ]
     
  7. Terry_Herrington

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    Molly,
    If what you say is true, nothing matters. If I am one of the "elect" then I am His no matter what I do or what I believe. To believe that God created man and then, for reasons know only to Himself, choose some to believe and some to perish is ludicrous. This would mean that mankind is nothing more that robots. God then would not have humans who love Him because of His wonderful salvation. We would only be what He has forced us to be. This would also mean that the unelect would be condemned to Hell because God just happened to decide that He wanted them to go there. How could they be held responsible for God's choice which He made for them. This doctrine would make God unjust.

    As I said, I have never met an independent baptist pastor who holds to this unjust view of God. Maybe independent baptist people are different in Texas, I don't know. If that is the case, thank God I was born in Texas!

    BTW, how could someone who is reported to be as smart as John Calvin come up with such a doctrine as this? Maybe he was too smart to see the simplicity of the Gospel that is in Christ.
     
  8. Scott_Bushey

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    Terry writes:
    I believe that anyone who will come to Christ in repentence will be accepted by God.

    Scott replies:
    The Calvinist agrees!

    Terry writes:
    I find it hard to believe that there are baptist who really think that some people are destined for hell, regardless of what they do. What a depressing doctrine. Thank God, it is not found in the Scripture, IMO.

    Scott replies:
    Some people are destined for Hell........
    See Jude 1:4 Some godless people have sneaked in among us and are saying, "God treats us much better than we deserve, and so it is all right to be immoral." They even deny that we must obey Jesus Christ as our only Master and Lord. But long ago the Scriptures warned that these godless people were doomed. (CEV)

    Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

    John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

    Ultimately, those whom come to Christ ARE the elect and will be saved......I know of no Calvinist who believes that if a man comes unto HIM, Christ will cast him out.

    [ November 06, 2002, 09:00 PM: Message edited by: Scott_Bushey ]
     
  9. Rev. G

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    Scott, I was thinking about this topic yesterday ("Election Day" in the USA). If I understand the doctrine of election then....

    Gov. Rick Perry (TX), who was elected yesterday, REALLY chose me, and the other residents of the Lone Star State, because he knew that we would first choose him (to be governor). Is that right (if you're an Arminian)?

    On the other hand, there are others who say that we really elected / chose Rick Perry to be governor. That the word "elect" means "to choose" - and this "election" is one-sided. Is that right (if you're a Calvinist)?

    Who did the electing? The elector(s) or the electee(s)? :eek:

    Rev. G
     
  10. JIMNSC

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    Scott - seems to me you answered your own question in your original post when you included Romans 8:29.

    Whom did He foreknow? Everyone!
    Whom did He predestinate? All He foreknew.
    Whom did He call? All He foreknew.
    Whom did He justify? All He foreknew.
    Whom did He glorify? All He foreknew.

    God knew all of us before birth and was never willing that any should perish but have everlasting life.

    Everyone is predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, but Scott, some "became" destined for hell later because of the way they lived their lives and failing to accept His election for them. They were not predestined for hell before they were born.
     
  11. Rev. G

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    JIMNSC, do you realize what you are stating here? Universalism, basically.

    Not all are justified. Not all are glorified.

    You might also want to continue on with the text, particularly v. 33 - "Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies."
     
  12. Scott_Bushey

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    Thank you RevG
     
  13. JIMNSC

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    Let me hurry up and explain. I guess I did a poor job with my post. I was saying God extended the opportunity to become a part of the "elect" to "everyone." How far you progress down that list I posted depends on the Holy Spirit and you.

    We have freedom of choice - just like in the garden of Eden. I had no intention to imply everyone was going to heaven whether they wanted to or not.

    However, I hope folks don't believe that some people are predestined for hell regardless.
     
  14. Scott_Bushey

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    JIMNSC writes:
    Let me hurry up and explain. I guess I did a poor job with my post. I was saying God extended the opportunity to become a part of the "elect" to "everyone." How far you progress down that list I posted depends on the Holy Spirit and you.

    Scott asks:
    JIM, so we elect ourselves essentially...we save ourselves. We choose to be saved. Heaven may be possibly empty based upon this premise. Christ only made Heaven possible for the elect......
     
  15. tyndale1946

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    I think too many brethren are getting the doctrine of Election mixed up... Tuesday we all voted for our favorite person to hold office in the government to represent us... In biblical doctrinal election you don't get to vote!... Its all the grace of God and your vote don't count!... Brother Glen [​IMG]

    [ November 07, 2002, 12:39 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]
     
  16. Rev. G

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    First, just FYI: Many "Arminians" attempt to reconcile the Scriptures teaching election by advancing the notion that Christ was "elected" and that those who choose Jesus are then "elect" in Him.

    Second, Isaiah 28:16, which is quoted by St. Peter (1 Peter 2:6) refers to Jesus as "elect."

    Third, Jesus is God, but God is not Jesus. Orthodox Christianity worships the Triune God: the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. [​IMG]

    Rev. G
     
  17. Scott_Bushey

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    Helen writes:
    And although we cannot love except He love us first, we read that He so loved the world that He gave His Son...

    That was His choice. We can choose to love Him back or to ignore His love.

    Thus election becomes a two-way thing and the marriage of the believer and Christ is a true love marriage.

    Scott asks:
    Is this how the Apostle Paul was saved? Did he have a choice?
     
  18. tyndale1946

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    Scott you bring up the Apostle Paul... Saul on the road to Damascus... Struck down by the blinding light of truth... Saul... Saul why persecutest thou me?... What was Sauls reply... Is that you Jesus? :confused:

    No way!... "WHO ART THOU LORD?"... I'm Jesus of Nazareth who thou persecuteth... Its hard for thee to kick against the pricks!... He was being pricked in the heart at the time being of the elect of God and chosen to bring the gospel to the Gentiles... Elect according to the foreknowledge of God!... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  19. LadyEagle

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    Scott asks:
    Is this how the Apostle Paul was saved? Did he have a choice?

    SheEagle911 asks: Did Moses?

    We have free will. Just as Adam had free will.

    God knows before the foundations of the earth which of us will use that free will to choose Him & Salvation. Thus, we are predestined because He already knows. And we are elected because He already knows.

    It is we humans who don't know & won't know until we see Jesus.
     
  20. Scott_Bushey

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    Glenn,
    And just for the record, I do not think (At that moment) Saul's intention was to be saved and converted to Chritianity. He was actually Hell-bent (no pun intended) on capturing and persecuting Christians!

    Acts 9:1 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
    Acts 9:2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.

    These passages are right before God (asks Saul if he wants to be saved- NOT!) saves him.
     

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