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electronic surveillance

Discussion in 'Political Debate & Discussion' started by El_Guero, Aug 21, 2006.

  1. Daisy

    Daisy New Member

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    Sorry, you didn't seem to.

    It also reveres him as a holy man, just not the Holy Man. I don't understand why you get so upset that other religions exist.

    You know I have not defended the anti-christ. I don't even know what you mean by that term - it is not the classical definition, is it?

    There, that you got right. He is risen and people have the right to believe and disbelieve what they will.

    No one is asking you to. :confused:
     
  2. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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  3. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    I just find it ironic with cameras at trafic lights and our cars being bugged that we are afraid of bugging the terrorists and their conversations.

    I know some people genuinely fear that this would allow bugging our homes, but I don't think so. But, if you think that we could discuss that.

    But, honestly . . . if we do not bug the terrorists - how would you catch them?
     
  4. Magnetic Poles

    Magnetic Poles New Member

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    You bug them after getting a FISA warrant.
     
  5. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    You know I might be crazy, but I know you know I ain't stupid - you get the FISA warrant so when a democratic congressman's aide accidently sells out the person with the warrant -they are shooting at you and not me.

    I got your back though.

    ;)

    That is why I am for bugging the terrorists . . .

     
  6. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    Next time answer the whole question instead of the half question that sounds good.

     
  7. Daisy

    Daisy New Member

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    El_Guero, who is afraid of bugging the terrorists?

    Phone calls are bugged illegally. The courts have ruled that phones are an extention of our homes with an expectation of privacy. This has already happened.

    How do you distinquish between terrorists and nonterrorist citizens? Do you think the government should have carte blanche to bug phone calls of anyone who catches their attention or do you think there should be some process to determine probable cause? What happens if somewhere down the line we get a president who decides to monitor his political rivals? It has happened before, so shouldn't we have some kind of check on this power just in case it should happen again?

    I am in favor of warranted electronic surveillence of suspected terrorists - suspected to be terrorists, not having to be known as such.
     
  8. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    Presently, we have warranted surveillance.

    The actions of a politically IMHO motivated judge brings to light the greater problem, the USA is truly at the mercy of a judicial system that regularly gives Constitutional protection to foreign born terrorists under the guise of protecting 'nationalized' and American born terrorists.

    My OP brought up the fact that we are regularly being monitored by foreign national companies - and there is no outcry. You said, disconnect it.

    If you want to ruin your car. disconnect it.

    But, if you are not worried about the Japanese, Koreans, Germans, French, & the Chinese monitoring you - why do you care if the USA monitors the terrorists?
     
  9. Daisy

    Daisy New Member

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    Yes, that is not the problem.

    The problem is that we also have unwarranted surveillance of US citizens' phone calls by the US government.

    No, all citizens, naturalized or native-born, have Constitutional rights - it is the basis of our nation.

    What specifically is being monitored?

    You haven't proven that disconnecting the reporting mechanism ruins the car - although I think it likely it will void your warranty.

    If the fact that the cars are reporting back certain information to the manufacturer is disclosed to the purchasers and users of the product - what is the problem? If you don't want to disconnect the black box, buy a car without one. It's an informed choice you can make. Buy American.
     
  10. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    Talk about fanatacism.

    I would rather have the US government bug every fantatic just in case one fanatic thinks about sympathizing with the enemy then to have foreign nationals bug my car.

    And if you think that is a violation of your freedom then why don't you give the rest of us the same freedom that you demand?

    I personally am for revoking the citizenships of those that do not belong here and sending them home - even if it was their grandparents that brought them here.
     
  11. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    Further,

    You have not proven that disconnecting the bugs is safe . . . and I should not have to worry about being bugged.

    If I as an honest, law abiding, patriotic American can be bugged by the foreigners - then all (every single last one) conversation on the phone in this country should be bugged by the USA.

    Hey! Maybe that is why they are letting the foreigners bug us - so that we will cave in on letting the government bug the terrorists! It is reverse psychology . . .
     
  12. Daisy

    Daisy New Member

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    What information do you think the black boxes in the automobiles are reporting?

    Fine, as long as there is a warrant stating probable cause to suspect criminal activity is taking place.

    A "bug" implies a secret listening device. It is not the case that the devices in the cars in the OP are secret or listening in the common sense of the word (ie. sound).

    If you don't want a monitoring device in your car, buy one without it. That's pretty simple. Isn't it more patriotic to buy American anyway?

    Huh? Yes, I think the government wiretapping US citizens without a warrant is a violation. The rest of who? Non-US citzens?

    What freedom is it you think I am demanding for myself only?

    So you hate America's Constitution and freedoms? Sounds vaguely familiar....
     
  13. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    The Constitution was not written about any listening devices - the Framers had none.

    Yet, the Framers did write the Constitution for Americans. They wrote against foreign powers.

    So, why should I disavow the Constitution by allowing electronic surveillance by foreign powers? . . . and why should I disavow the Constitution by extending the protection of the Constitution to the enemy . . .

    I just do not understand why you would sympathize against an American and for a foreigner . . .
     
  14. Daisy

    Daisy New Member

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    True enough, but the 4th Amendment says that citizens are protected from unreasonable searches by the government. The courts have held that private phone conversations come under that protection.

    Foreign corporations are not "foreign powers" and there are articles concerning commerce.

    For the third time, what information do you think these devices are transmitting? Foreign corporations are not legally considered foreign powers, nations are.

    If you agree to the monitoring by knowingly buying the product (it is your responsibility to read the fine print and theirs to provide it), then you've waived your right not to be surveilled - the Constitution generally allows commerce between citizens and foreigners.

    If you don't want the black box, don't buy one.

    Who are you calling the enemy here? If the Constitution protects someone you consider to be "the enemy" then you would be disavowing it to violate that protection.

    Because the American, in this case, is complaining about a device which theoretically improves the product which he voluntarily purchased and the foreigner sold it to him.

    Seriously, what information about do you think the devices are transmitting?
     
  15. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    Theoretical? What part of reality do you not participate in?

    I am appalled that any one daring to call themselves American would tell me to read the fine print so that I am not surveilled by foreign powers.

    The Constitution is the fine print.
     
  16. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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    Whine and cry about protecting terrorists . . . that is unbelievable.
     
  17. Daisy

    Daisy New Member

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    A foreign corporation is not a "foreign power." Don't buy the product if you don't like what it does.

    No, it's the large.

    For the fifth time, what information do you think the car's black boxes are transmitting?
     
    #57 Daisy, Aug 25, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 25, 2006
  18. Inquiring Mind

    Inquiring Mind New Member

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    How do we know there are not tracking devices as well in these black boxes?
     
  19. El_Guero

    El_Guero New Member

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  20. Daisy

    Daisy New Member

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    For the sixth time, what information do you think the car's black boxes are transmitting?
    Well, yeah - the kid's a US citizen, who, as you say, is NOT a terrorist. What reason would you have for not treating him in a lawful manner? Why would you violate the Constitution as regards this guy?
     
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