Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?

Did God really forsake David when he wrote Psalm 22:1? NO! David merely felt the separation resulting from sin in our lives, bringing a breach in fellowship with the Father. This is exactly what Jesus felt, and for the first time ever! God did not forsake Jesus; how can God forsake himself? But he was forced to break fellowship because of our sin on his shoulders. If you had the sin of the world on you, you would feel like God had forsaken you...

IMO,
R1

 

I concur ... :thumbs:

 

SFIC, I totally agree with you here.
To say Jesus merely "felt" this way is to say that He was a subjective being.

 

I somewhat go along with the notion or the teaching, if you will, that Jesus was forsaken by the Father at the cross.
Jesus became the very essence, or personification, of sinful man, and just as the Father abandons the wicked to the grasp of sin and He lifts not a finger on the wicked's behalf, so did He turn away from Jesus, who at that time was sin at the cross.
Somebody said that at that very moment, all the sins of the elect of God were upon Jesus and Jesus, being God and as eternal as the Father, bore the eternal punishment of each of the elect's sin on Himself. God's wrath was poured without reservation upon Him.
Had He not allowed death upon Himself, He would have continued suffering on that cross.

He could not have just thought or felt that God had abandoned Him. He knew. Remember that He said that He and the Father are one. His thoughts are the Father's thoughts, His will is the Father's will. They had been together for eternity, and in this infinitesimal moment of time, He did not feel, for the first time, His Father's presence with Him.

Yet, the God part of Jesus had faith in the Father, that the Father will not turn His back on His promise not to leave His soul in corruption, therefore, Jesus is able to cry out, "Father, into Thy hands, I commit my Spirit".

At any rate, I don't much care about the theology of these things which I do not fully understand.

What matters is I know that my redeemer liveth, and because He lives, so do I live.

 

Did God forsake David in Psalm 22:1?

If the verse was quoted because it applied to him so well, wouldn't that indicate that the Father really did not 'forsake' him?

If Jesus 'knew' all these things, why did he ask 'why'?

 

This would be another interesting thread. lol

Maybe we shouldn't touch on that one until we get the bomb squad in position. :laugh:

 

Ok, I do not know if it has been brought up yet or not but I will again if that is the case. What relationship does Life have with death? Death is the absence of Life. God is Life. So when Christ died God left. Going into Hell, Christ entered the realm of existence where God does not dwell. Only God could return Christ to Life and He could not bare to leave His Son there. Even though Jesus bore our sins to the cross and then to Hell God in His mercy could not leave Him there. Romans chapter 5 explains it better.

Romans 5:6-21
6For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. 12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

See also Romans 6:4-23

 

This looks suspiciously like a modern variant of Nestorianism.

 

Your suspicions are misplaced. I did not say that Jesus and God are 2 seperate people. I said that when Jesus died, God (life) forsook Him. Death is the absence of life. Jesus existed as God. If God never forsook the body of Christ He would still be suffering on that cross outside of Jerusalem to this day. Even as they came to break His legs they saw that He was dead already. Could you just imagine the pilgrimages to Calvary to see His perpetual suffering with broken legs? If God did not forsake Christ on the cross He would still be there. He died, Life fled and it was His death, separation from God, that He hoped and prayed would pass from Him in the garden. It was God's will that He should forsake Him.

 

AMEN! :thumbs: That separation was "the cup" of which Jesus prayed to the Father would "pass from Him"..."yet not My will, but Thine be done".

 

Matthew 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Tim, how bad is sin? Why did Jesus pray and ask His Father to let "this cup pass from Him"? Jesus Christ died in our place. He paid our debt by dying and shedding His blood on the cross. He bore our sin in His body on the cross. God cannot look on sin...therefore, since Jesus "became sin for us" (2 Cor. 5:21), God HAD to forsake and turn away from His Son during that time He was on the cross. That was "the cup" of which Jesus spoke. It was not His physical suffering He feared. Jesus Christ, the spotless Lamb of God, died in our place, became sin for us, and finished the work of redemption. Through His shed blood, we have forgiveness of sin and eternal life.

 

Benjamin,

Neither do we want to be guilty of setting Scripture against Scripture.

I'll go with what Jesus expressed from the cross: "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?"

Jesus said that the Father forsook Him. Now if you think that is subject to further interpretation, so be it. But as for me, I'll accept it like it is.

 

LeBuick,

There are so many intricate details to Immanuel, "God with us", that we'll never fully comprehend until eternity.

I believe the cry from the cross is one of them, My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

Jesus says Me. Should we then go on to over-analyze what is meant by Me? Some have, but as for me, I'll accept it as it is.

Jesus said the Father forsook Him. Period.

 

That's 3 periods.

That is a good position, TCG. I don't see a problem with believing that when Jesus said "why hast thou forsaken me," it meant the Father had forsaken him...
Why do you think Jesus asked 'why?'

 

Jesus said that the Father forsook Him, and yes it was because He was bearing our sins.

But Jesus said the Father forsook Him. Here's the Scripture again:

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

Tim, I can't get around that.

 

I think it was because He was bearing our sins.

 

Notice that Jesus cried, "My God, My God...", not "My God, My God, My God..."

It is clear that Jesus was forsaken at that moment by both the Father and the Spirit.