Ellen G. White

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Hardsheller, Apr 18, 2003.

  1. Hardsheller

    Hardsheller
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    What are the writings of Ellen G. White considered to be by your church or denomination?

    [ April 18, 2003, 05:27 PM: Message edited by: Hardsheller ]
     
  2. BobRyan

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    Easy.

    If you are not-SDA then she has to be a false prophet. There can be no other conclusion.

    Many of her statements that were "claimed to come from God" explicitly promote SDA doctrinal distinctives. If those doctrines are not correct (which would be the case by definition for anyone starting from a non-SDA doctrinal point) then the conclusion is obvious.

    A no-brainer. How could there be any other response?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. Hardsheller

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    Bob,

    I'm not trying to start a fight here I just want to know how her writings are viewed.

    Since you are an SDA I appreciate you answering.

    In Your opinion are her writings prophetic?

    Are there differing opinions upon this subject within the SDA denomination?

    Thanks,

    Jim Shaver
    Hardsheller
     
  4. BobRyan

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    Yes her writings are "prophetic" and the position of the SDA church as identified in its published 27 Fundamental Beliefs document is that she is a true prophet of God.

    Individuals may differ on personnal views - but that is not what determines the views of the denomination. Every 5 years representatives from the world church gather and vote on the statement of beliefs that most accurately reflects the doctrinal position of the entire group.

    However I don't know of any SDAs that reject the 1Cor 12 doctrine of spiritual gifts. Essentially - the SDA church accepts the continuation of spiritual gifts as given in the NT - particularly 1Cor 12.

    Ellen White is viewed in the same way as one might view the prophets of 1Cor 14 who were given messages by God - but did not write a word that was cannonized into the NT scripture.

    Testing of any of those prophets would be "sola scriptura".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  5. Hardsheller

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    Does S.D.A. ecclesiology allow for prophets in the church today? Or was E.G.W. considered a one time - forever prophet?
     
  6. Frank

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    No, the writings of Ellen G. White are not inspired. The Bible teaches that holy MEN of God spake as the spirit gave them utterance.I Pet. 1:20,21. I believe Ellen G. white was a woman, not a man.
     
  7. DanielFive

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    Here's a link to a site which addresses SDA errors resulting from the False prophecies of Ellen White.

    Incidentally many of her writings were the result of plagiarism.
    FALSE PROPHET
     
  8. BobRyan

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    As I said - the 27FB endorses the "continuation of spiritual gifts" which is "the doctrine" upon which all this is based.

    Ellen White for her part - predicted that more would come.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  9. BobRyan

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    As was the prophetess Miriam. Numbers 12:2-6

    As was Anna Luke 2:36

    As were the 4 daughters of Philip Acts 21:8-9

    As were the women of 1Cor 14 among the "EACH ONE" that had a revelation from God... 1Cor 14:26.

    As were ALL church members of the Pure NT church commanded to "DESIRE earnestly spiritual gifts but ESPECIALLY that you may prophesy". 1Cor 14:1

    God's Word is pretty explicit and clear on that point.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. Frank

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    Bob:
    Scripture that is inspired is WRITTEN. I Pet. 1:20,21. The word prophesy meant to reveal truth. Yes, women could reveal truth. However, they were not used to reveal inspired scripture. It is as Peter said, holy MEN of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. One may reveal or declare truth and it not be scripture. Jesus chose 12 men to be his apostles and to guide them into ALL truth. John 16:13. These men and those who were given the ability to write by inspiration were ALL MEN. I Pet. 1: 20,21, Acts 8:17,18. A gift used to write the complete revelation of God's will. I Cor. 13:8-13, Jude 3, Acts 20:27, Rev. 22:18,19, II Tim. 3:16,17, Eph. 3:1-6; 4:12-18.
    Therefore, Ellen's writings are uninspired because of the following:

    1. All truth was revealed to the apostles. John 16:13. Therefore, there is none left for Ellen to reveal.

    2. MEN were used to write scripture. I Pet. 1:20,21. Ellen White is a woman. Therefore ,she was not inspired to write scripture.

    3.Jesus commanded ALL things to be taught and practiced. Mat. 28:18-20. He did not command seventh day adventism nor Ellen to declare any truth as one and two prohibit this.

    Therefore, Ellen G. White is an uninspired writer of books about religion.
     
  11. Smoky

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    I've read parts of Ellen G. Whites "Desire of the Ages", and find some portions to be very inspiring and some to be rather "way out". It's interesting that sometimes she tries to fill in the gaps in areas where the bible itself is silent. I might have missunderstood, but I believe in one place, she stated that its possible for a human being to keep all the Ten Commandments perfectly in this life. That seems to controdict the scripture that says we are liers if we say we have no sin.

    One post is very interesting in that it brings up the question of what really determines whether an oracle or writting is really inspired scripture or whether just another revelation of truth. Often we say that we think a sermon is very inspired or a book is very inspired but we don't place it on the same level as scripture. The early church had this problem and had to attack it from two opposite extremes. Marcion was the first person who tried to canonize the bible but in the process left out the whole old testament and part of the new. Montanus believed inspired relevation had no limits and could just keep coming. I don't think there was any general council of the church that declared which books should be scripture, but the criterea used by most was, "could it be traced back to an apostle, or to someone very closely related to an apostle, or closely related to the Lord himself. Therefore you have Matthew, Luke, and John as Apostles, and Mark who was closely related to Peter. The Apostle Paul had met the Lord on the road to Damascus and the writer of Hebrews, if not Paul, was thought to be sommone like Barnabus, who was close to Paul. I guess the final determining factor came through generations of use, where the church could choose under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit which books were the most benificial.I would like to have more input on "how do we really know which books are inspired, or how did we come to realize that the bible we have is the one and only "Word of God"
     
  12. BobRyan

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    You are not following the points.

    #1. 1Cor 12 - there is only ONE gift of prophecy. Not two.

    #2. Numbers 12 already referenced and applied to BOTH Miriam and Aaron SHOWS that SAME form of the gift of prophecy that we find in 1Cor 12. (IF there is a prophet among you I will speak to them in a DREAM or a VISION).

    #3. As the many examples showed - just because a man OR a woman had that spiritual gift DID NOT mean that they were authoring scripture. Many existed in the NT without one of their writings being included in scripture.

    These prophets in 1Cor 12 were not simply "bible teachers" or "pastors" they were those who were given divine revelations as in Numbers 12 and 1Cor 14.

    Again you are not following the point. IF the complete revelation of God's will was finished with 1Cor 13 vs 13 - there would not be a 1Cor 14.

    "ALL truth was not revealed to the Apostles" they did not "become God". Truth was revealed in stages and the work of the Holy Spirit "The Spirit of Truth" that GUIDES YOU into all truth - continues to this day.


    Nobody is claiming that Ellen White wrote more "scripture".

    As my first post shows - ALL prophets are evaluated "sola scriptura" there is no possible way to get to any OTHER conclusion about "Ellen White" without first finding all doctrines of the SDA church to be Biblically correct. Failing that - rejecting of Ellen White is simply a byproduct - expected.

    Not merely "expected" but "insisted upon" since all prophets must be tested "sola scriptura".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. BobRyan

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    She never taught that anyone other than Christ was sinless. Not even Mary.

    She did teach the 1Cor 10 principle that "NO temptation has overtaken but SUCH as is common to man. God is faithful in NOT allowing you to be tempted beyond that which you are able and will with the temptation provide the way of escape".

    Freedom from slavery to the dictates of sin is key to Romans chapter 6.

    Agreed. However the Numbers 12 point that God makes is clear "IF there is a prophet among you I will speak to them by way of DREAM or Vision".

    In the 1Cor 14 case of prophets God is so controlling that they are the only ones that may "interrupt each other".

    Even so - just because one is given a message from God - does not make that message "scripture" - but it does make it "inspired" in the Numbers 12 sense of a true prophet.

    That is an error. NOT that revelation can't keep coming BUT that anything that is revelation - any message from God by dream or vision is "scripture". That is not true.

    True - though you might ask about Luke.

    The point is - all that is inspired revelation - is not scripture.

    Scripture has to be considered under the divine and sovereign hand of God as "intended" for all mankind. As "intended" as the "only rule of faith and doctrine". As "intended" to be the rule for all other divine revelation, the standard by which it is to be judged.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. Frank

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    BOB:
    Jesus promised the apostles they would know ALL truth. John 14:26 says, But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall TEACH YOU ALL THINGS, and bring ALL THINGS TO YOUR REMEMBRANCE, whatsoever I have said unto you. John 16:13 says,  Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into ALL TRUTH: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
    Mat. 28:18-20 says,And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
    19  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
    20  Teaching them TO OBSERVE ALL THINGS whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Paul said in Acts 20: 27 I have not shunned to declare unto you ALL or the whole counsel of God. Your assertion that the apostles did not know all the truth is without scriptural support and is false. Deut 29:29 teaches us the secret things belong to the Lord but the things Which are revealed are for the sons of men. And, ALL one needs to know is provided by the writings of the inspired men of the first century. Jude 3, II Pet. 1:3.
    The word prophesy means to proclaim divine truth. It does not necessitate a rendering of divine revelation as scripture. The words for prophesy and scripture are different. II Pet. 1:20 The word scripture is from graphe meaning to write i.e a document. Prophesy of Acts 21:9 is from the greek word propheteuo meaning to foretell events. Graphe= write. Propheteuo= proclaim. Things that are different are not the same.
    Therefore,the rational mind must conclude based on the evidence: 1) The ability to WRITE the divine will of God was given to the inspired men of the first century. John 14:26;16:13. 2). They were given the abiltiy to REMEMBER ALL THINGS, TO TEACH ALL THINGS, TO OBSERVE ALL THINGS. Mat. 28:18-20, John 16:13;15:26. 3). Since one and two are true, it must ratinally follow all has been given and received to us by MEN guided to do so. This would exclude any other individual from writing by inspiration of God.
     
  15. BobRyan

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    #1 only ONE Apostle lived long enough to see and read the last letter written in the NT that was to be included later as the NT text.

    That means ALL of those standing there in John 16 died BEFORE recieving "ALL truth" EVEN if you define "ALL TRUTH" as what is in the 66 books of scripture.

    You are trying to bend the text to mean that ALL of those hearing Christ in John 16 were all given ALL truth - and that truth was the NT Text in addition to the OT text. The problem is that argument works "at best" for only ONE of them.

    Christ's promise in John 16 is AS He said in John 17 NOT only for them but "For all who believe THROUGH their testimony". It is for us as well which is why Paul says to MORE believers OTHER than those at the meeting of John 16 "DESIRE earnestly spiritual gifts but ESPECIALLY that YOU may prophesy".

    And as God sais in Numbers 12 "IF there is a PROPHET among you I WILL make Myself KNOWN to Him in a DREAM or a VISION".

    Hence Paul speaks of those with that gift "HAVING a REVELATION from the Lord" 1Cor 14. So instantaneous that IF one is STANDING and speaking - while one who is seated suddenly gets a "revelation from the Lord" then the one standing must stop speaking - mid-message and let the one seated convey the "revelation from the Lord".

    These are people that were NOT at the John 16 meeting. By your argument above they "should have been excluded" but in fact - they are not.

    The promise is for you and your children - for the Apostles and "ALL those who believe through their testimony".

    And 1Cor 12 says that these gifts (including prophecy) are given by the Holy Spirit as HE sees fit.

    But you are right to argue this from the standpoint of whether or not to accept the continuation of the 1Cor 12 spiritual gifts. That is where the REAL difference exists to start with.


    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. Frank

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    Bob:
    The apostles were given all truth. Paul said he shunned not to declare all the counsel of God. Acts 20:27. One can know all truth, and preach it, and subsequently write it down. It is immaterial when the last letter was written. It does not matter who was a live to read the last letter. The 12 were given all the truth. God said his revelation was not to be " added to or subtracted from ". Rev 22:18,19.
    The implication from Rev. 22:18,19 is clear. God had provided ALL things needed for life and Godliness. II Pet. 1:3. He made man complete through his completed revelation. II Tim. 3:16,17. The faith had been once delivered to all men. Jude 3. Jesus made sure it was written down. In Rev. 1:11, the Bible says,Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
    He commanded it. Paul wrote the commandments of the Lord. I Cor. 14:37. Peter proclaimed that Paul's writings were scripture. II Pet. 3:16.

    Furthermore, there is no proof any woman ever wrote any inspired message. The person that provides the evidence of women writing by inspiration has the scoop of all time.
     
  17. BobRyan

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    The argument that the book of Revelation was pre-revealed to all those at the John 16 meeting prior to each of their deaths so that all could know "the same things" is not "supportable". Your interpretation simply does not work with the NT text.

    The idea that James had all the NT text revealed to him - all the letter of PAul to the various churches revealed to him before his death - is not supportable.

    The idea that All the Apostles had all the information written by Paul BEFORE he wrote it and BEFORE they died - is not suportable since EVEN Peter declares that the things of PAUL are hard to understand as WRITTEN - EVEN for them.

    The further emphasis by Christ in that SAME meeting that these promises are NOT just for those present but for ALL who would believe in their testimony - ALSO does not fit your interpretation.

    The Emphasis of Paul on desiring the gift of Prophecy AND God's statement that it works via dream and vision - ALSO does not fit your interpretation.

    And the manner of its exercise such that one STANDING and speaking in church must be seated IF a "revelation is MADE" to one who is seated (A dynamic process that is interrupting the speaker in this case) ALSO does not fit your interpretation.

    And so - 1Cor 12 remains applicable to "real"
    prophecy as we see it described in God's Word in Numbers 12 "IF there is a prophet among you I WILL reveal Myself to him by DREAM or VISION".


    In Christ,

    bob
     
  18. Frank

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    Bob:
    I am not interpreting any spiritual gift other than that of writing by inspiration. So, your point about the letter to the Corinthians is irrelevant.
    Secondly, Just because a writing is hard to understand does not mean it is incapable of being understood. It can be understood but it is difficult. Jesus said ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free. John 8:32. I believe him.
    Thirdly, The argument that the truth of Revelation was not prerevealed to the apostles before death is unsupportable. Jesus said they would Know all truth John 16:13. Can you prove he lied about that statement? Your assertion about revelation and those of John 16 is unsubstantiated. Jesus said they would know all. Why should one doubt Christ? The rest of your argument is also unsubstantiated by any evidence. Again, What evidence is there available that disputes what Christ said in John 14:26, John 15:26, John 16;13.
    Furthermore, Jesus commanded the 12 to teach all things commanded, to observe all things to be practiced, even unto the end of the world. Mat. 28:18-20. What evidence can you provide that would refute the commands of Christ to the 12? Again, your argument is not in harmony with words of Christ. It is unsubstantiated by credible evidence. Of which, you have provided none.
     
  19. BobRyan

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    This is the fascinating part of the discussion. We are discussing the gift of "Prophecy" as GOD defines in in HIS Word. So I go to the parts of HIS WORD where that gift is detailed. 1Cor 12, 1Cor 14, Numbers 12 etc.

    In your mind - you "seek to address Prophecy by NOT talking about any text that actually MENTIONS the gift of prophecy".

    Fascinating Frank!!
     
  20. BobRyan

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    This is the fascinating part of the discussion. We are discussing the gift of "Prophecy" as GOD defines in in HIS Word. So I go to the parts of HIS WORD where that gift is detailed. 1Cor 12, 1Cor 14, Numbers 12 etc.

    In your mind - you "seek to address Prophecy by NOT talking about any text that actually MENTIONS the gift of prophecy".

    Fascinating Frank!!

    And then you "invent a spiritual gift" in the list
    called "The spiritual gift of writing scripture" as if to "separate that from Revelation and Prophecy given DIRECTLY by God". Having "renamed it" you seek to use your own tactic to AVOID learning from God's OWN DISCUSSION of "Prophecy" as HE defines it in His Word.

    Amazing!!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     

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