Ellen White a Prophet of God?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by steaver, Jul 17, 2005.

  1. steaver

    steaver
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    Here you go Bob. Now you don't have to keep reiterating about the Sabbath.

    I said...

    You reply...

    How about "sticking" to my specific question about Ellen's specific declaration that it would be " God's power " that throws these buildings down?

    Do you believe that it was God's power which destroyed these buildings on 9/11 Bob?

    At the same time, was it God's power which sent the plane into the Pentagon as well as the one in the farmer's field in Pa?

    Since these were all of the same making, why do you suppose God sent one plane into the Pentagon and one into the ground? Or was God's power in the case of the Pa plane overturned by the radical men who charged the cockpit?

    Now I know I asked more questions than my original inquiry, so please don't skip over my original question. Just wondering how you fit the whole deal as "God's power" being behind the day?

    BTW, yes it was "God's power" which brought the flood and only eight souls were saved. Has nothing to do with my question, unless you do believe it was "God's power" behind 9/11. Still waiting to here from you on that. [​IMG]

    God Bless!
     
  2. BobRyan

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    I am not sure where you are going with this since it is obviously the case (as with the Philistines in Israel and Babylon with Israal and Syria with Israel and the Sabeans with Job and ...) that the "efficiency" or lack thereof of the pagans has nothing to do with the "predictions" made by the prophets of God regarding those nations they victimized. One does not look for innefficiencies in the Philistines or Syrians and charge God with being "innefficient" in allowing them to cause damage to Israel.

    "The test" is whether the prediction about a fire proof skyscraper burning like pitch - IN NY came to pass. Evaluating the "motives" of WHY that happened and how "efficiently" evil was able to be done to America when God withdrew some level of protection seems to be another topic entirely.

    If one wants to charge that God is not sovereign and so we sometimes just have to "endure" whatever evil comes our way because God has nothing He can do about it -- then that too is another thread. (Unless you want to insert that view into scripture and show how prophetic warnings relate to such a chaotic model for life on earth).

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. BobRyan

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    BTW - as already noted on the other thread where you asked this question -- "What context" are you using for your question in the title of this thread?

    Since you are not SDA - I assume your question is "For a non-SDA is Ellen White a Prophet of God".

    I have already stated that given that context the answer "should be" - no.

    I have also stated that the "Reason" relates to the tests of a prophet regarding doctrine and the Word of God. "To the Law and to the Testimony if they speak not according to this word it is because they have no light" Isaiah 8.

    When cross-denominational evaluation of prophetic gifts take place - the "only case" where one can be approved as a prophet is in cases where that prophet never claimed to have a message related to any doctrinal dictinctives of their particular denomination.

    Ellen White's trinitarian statements claimed to be from God - would "prove that she is not a true prophet of God" to non-Trinitarian groups.

    Ellen White's Arminian statemetns claimed to be from God "would PROVE that she is not a true prophet" to Calvinist groups.

    Ellen White's views on Baptism of "believers only" Claimed to be from God - would "PROVE she is not a true prophet of God" to those groups that baptize infants.

    Her statements against slavery and in favor of prohibitoin - that she claimed to be from God - would be taken as "PROOF" that she was not a true prophet to those pro-slavery Christian groups in the south (in the 19th century) and to those who claim that Alcohol was fine for a Christian if taken in moderation.

    And yes - she also made Post-Trib Pre-Millennial statements and claimed that those came from God as well. So that crosses off another large slice.

    So the discussion kinda - "ends" before it really gets started.

    (As already noted on the other thread).

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. steaver

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    Brother Bob, why do you dance around? You sure laid down quite a few rabbit trials in an attempt to dodge Ellen's specifics about NY.

    True Prophets give specifics which cannot be denied when they take place.

    Ellen gave this "specific" when prophesising about NY... "I know that one day the great buildings there will be thrown down by the turning and overturning of God's power ".

    Ellen said nothing about an enemy coming upon NY. She said God's power would throw the buildings down.

    Ellen said nothing about God withdrawing protection. She said God Himself would throw these buildings down. You are right that this would be "another topic entirely".

    Right again-another thread. Ellen was specific, or maybe then not so specific, when she said God would throw these buildings down. Ellen was good at vagueness in her predictions, most spiritualist are. Either this is another vague prediction or she really meant that God would throw the buildings down, like when God Himself brought on the flood.

    God does not send Prophets for specific denominations. Any Prophet of God is for ALL people to obey any warnings or doctrine given by God through that Prophet.

    Sorry, SDA's are not a specially chosen group of Christians. God is no respector of persons.

    God Bless!
     
  5. BobRyan

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    How in the world can a sola scriptura view of the TEST of a prophet be "dancing around"???

    Why in the world would you consider it "irrelevant" that you are not in a position to conclude ANYTHING other than "not a prophet" based on the doctrinal test alone - and that this invalidates every other supposed objective review right at the very start???

    Don't you think your position that seems to want to ignore this first and most basic test - leaves your method in doubt?

    As for the specification - (which you also want to "ignore") - she said that tall skyscrapers IN NY declared to be fireproof would come down - would burn like pitch and the fire department would be unnable to stop it. This was in a chapter in Volume 9 page 11.

    These facts (that you are trying to ignore) are the facts of that prediction. Nothing more.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  6. Hardsheller

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    Bump - just observing
     
  7. BobRyan

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    What part of "Plane crash in field in PA" sounds like "NY skyscraper - fireproof and burning like pitch"??

    What part of "Pentagon and Washington D.C" sounds like "NY skyscraper - fireproof building burning like pitch with firemen unnable to extinguish the blaze"??

    Why do you go these many varied directions when supposedly trying to objectively evaluate the "details" of a given prediction?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. BobRyan

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    As for Ellen white saying nothing about God withdrawing protection from the earth and yes even from the US - she has mentioned that quite a lot.

    The "verifiable" point you keep trying to make is in the DETAILS of what we can SEE. You seem think that we have a video of the heavenly court of God DURING Sep 11 2001 and can "validate" that a decree for or against that event was given or not given. What kind of "validation" are you thinking of???

    I am speaking about those aspects that WE SEE and that are actually in the prediction. I am not claiming to have "A video of God" during Sept 11.
     
  9. BobRyan

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    As has been pointed out "repeatedly" God used the evil nations around Israel "repeatedly" and God warned Israel of the damage that would come to them if they went down a certain path.

    Moses did the same thing predicting trouble from those nations around them -- without specifically predicting a date a day or exact battles.

    In the case of NY - nobody alive in the 1800's or prior to 2001 could have been using that prediction as "the reason" for accepting Ellen White since it had not happened yet.

    In fact - these future predictions that are on longer time lines are very MUCH in line with the predictions John Gave.

    Paul points out that EVEN APOSTLES have to be tested. Gal 1:6-11. Yet you argue that we should not be using actual Bible tests when it comes to Ellen White - rather we should simply "make up tests" as if that was EVER a Bible practice!

    I have given you the most logical and reliable method for cross-denominational tests of a prophet but you complain that using the Bible is "Dancing around" as compared to simply ignoring the details of a prediction like the one for NY and "making stuff up" about what we know was happening in heaven during that event.

    I have no idea why you are using this approach. Why not use the more Biblically supportable one that I suggested?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. BobRyan

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    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    BTW - as already noted on the other thread where you asked this question -- "What context" are you using for your question in the title of this thread?

    Since you are not SDA - I assume your question is "For a non-SDA is Ellen White a Prophet of God".

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Finally - a point of reason!

    Then the doctrinal test would be first!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. BobRyan

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    Good to see you take some time out from the Calvinist/Arminian discussion Hardsheller.

    You "had to like" that Calvinist vs Arminian point above - eh?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  12. BobRyan

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    quote: Bob said
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Since you are not SDA - I assume your question is "For a non-SDA is Ellen White a Prophet of God".

    I have already stated that given that context the answer "should be" - no.

    I have also stated that the "Reason" relates to the tests of a prophet regarding doctrine and the Word of God. "To the Law and to the Testimony if they speak not according to this word it is because they have no light" Isaiah 8.

    ...

    Ellen White's views on Baptism of "believers only" Claimed to be from God - would "PROVE she is not a true prophet of God" to those groups that baptize infants.

    Her statements against slavery and in favor of prohibitoin - that she claimed to be from God - would be taken as "PROOF" that she was not a true prophet to those pro-slavery Christian groups in the south (in the 19th century) and to those who claim that Alcohol was fine for a Christian if taken in moderation.

    And yes - she also made Post-Trib Pre-Millennial statements and claimed that those came from God as well. So that crosses off another large slice.

    So the discussion kinda - "ends" before it really gets started.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    So after ducking the point that a "Cross-denominational test" would REQUIRE looking at doctrinal distinctives - you then jump back into the point and admit that in fact you DO want a cross-denomination context to evaluate --in which case the entire POINT in the quote above from me - is exactly applicable!!

    How many "different ways" are you willing to go on this before picking one consistent argument?

    What part of the generic "cross denominational test" argument given above sounds like "SDAs only"????

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  13. billwald

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    Has anyone ever profited from EGW's prophecies? If so who and how?
     
  14. BobRyan

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    The SDA Church has.

    She directed a number of places where land was to be purchased and then schools/hospitals built.

    The church grew significantly in those early years.

    SDAs now have one of the most extensive missionary/hospital/educational system of any Christian church as well as having one of the best health records as a group in the U.S.

    The SDA church is also one of the largest groups promoting recognition of Christ the Creator's Holy Day. This certainly was not the case in those early years when it was just starting.

    Though Ellen White is not the source of the doctrinal statements her ministry certainly can be credited for much of the insight regarding health and education as well as the resulting ability of the group to stay on focus and maintain rapid growth.

    She died having assets slightly less than the amount of debt in her name. Those debts were paid off over a short time by royalties. She served as a foster parent to a number of children as well as parenting her own children.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. steaver

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    Hi Bob,

    I don't have much time tonight so this will have to be brief.

    On the other thread a web site was given declaring Ellen White's prophecies fulfilled.

    This thread can lead us in any direction you please. That is why I titled it the way I did.

    However, my opening questions were directed at Ellen's prophecy about NY. Not whether or not she is a prophet. The site claims that her writings concerning NY came true on 9/11.

    You list "specifics" but let out the one that states "God's power" is what throws these buildings down.

    I would like a simple yes or no from you. Do you believe that it was God's power that destroyed these buildings ?

    Feel free to elaborate on your answer, but please give me a position to begin with.

    Sorry I do not have time to address any of your other comments. I will read over them more thoughtfully as time permits.

    God Bless!
     
  16. Born Again Catholic

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    Steaver I don't want to hijack your thread but I still can't understand what Bob's position is, so if you don't mind I will ask Bob a question.

    Bob, do you personally believe Ellen White is a "true prophet" or a "false prophet"? And why?
     
  17. Link

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    I am open to the idea that someone could be a prophet in modern times. My question is this, why should we consider Ellen G. White to be a prophet?

    Did she demonstrate any of the gifts of the a prophet? I hear she had a few dreams. Did she predict any future events that came to pass? Did she demonstrate the gift of prophecy manifested in the ways we see Biblical prophets using these gifts?

    What little I know of Ellen G. White is that is that she wrote books describing her interpretations of doctrine and church history.

    My impression of some of her works is that they do not seem like prophetic writings at all. For example, she wrote about health, breathing in through the nose and out through the mouth, and how important that is. Some of the more fanatical SDA's consider all of her writings to have been inspired. I wonder what they would do if they found Moses' grocery list. Was that inspired, too.

    For me, the issue of whether some modern person is a prophet and whether their writings are 'inspired' or 'anointed' are separate issues. A prophet could write a non-inspired document. There have probably been several church leaders who considered the epistle of Barnabas or the Protoevangel attributed to St. James to have been written by genuine apostles, but not inspired scripture.

    I do not care much for some of White's views of the law, or that of her staunch interpreters. In Acts 15, the apostles did not tell the Gentiles to abstain from eating pork.

    I saw part of a documentary about the history of the Advantist movement. White emerged as a leading figure after Miller turned out to be wrong about the date of the second coming of Christ. The documentaries description of Ellen G. White's explanation of it made it sound to me like she was still trying to reinterpret Miller's prophecies ina way that made the Adventist movement eschatologically significant.

    Is there any reason to even think that Ellen G. White was a prophet? Did her ministry have a prophetic flavor to it? Did she have any more insightful dreams about situations she might not otherwise know about than your average believer in a Charismatic church might have and talk about? (That is not to say that Baptists don't have such dreams, but they might not feel as free to talk about them or put stock in them as Charismatics.)
     
  18. BobRyan

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    This is a good question.

    Moses wrote about events at creation and the flood - he was not there for those events but he wrote about them as they were shown to him by God.

    Daniel wrote about the second coming and world empires that would follow Babylon.

    John wrote about the future persecution, the 2nd coming, the millennium, the fall of satan, the New Jerusalem, the lake of fire etc.

    We consider these men to have had the GIFT of prophecy -- even though for they did not go around saying "next Tuesday I predict the sky will be pink".

    Ellen White also claimed to have had visions of heaven, of creation, of the fall of lucifer, of the tribulation, of the 2nd coming, of the millennium, of the new Jerusalem and the new earth. OF the heaven itself etc etc. Of the details in the life of Christ and his crucifixion.

    So there is plenty of evidence that she was "claiming" to have inspired revelations through both dreams and visions.

    Many of her early visions were public and during those visions she ceased to breathe. In one case however she stood up and spoke holding a large family Bible above her head - turning the pages and reading the texts. However when she later related what SHE was seeing - it did not involve anything like holding up a Bible and reading each text.

    She had visions on health related issues regarding eating meat, smoking (they were using medicated cigarettes in her day), cancer, TB etc.

    In any case the point is that in the many thousands of pages written by Ellen White there are tons of examples of "Claims" to a prophetic vision.

    Whether she IS an actual prophet or merely someone telling stories has to be judged sola scriptura - using the Bible tests of a prophet.

    There is NO test that says a prophet MUST make short term predictions -- so we have no problem with Moses, Daniel, John, James, Paul etc.

    Ellen White made very very few of that kind of "next week this will happen" prediction.

    If she was a true prophet then possibly God did not have a great burden to reveal "next week" to 19th century people -- any more than He did for the NT church with John.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  19. BobRyan

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    I believe She is a true prophet because in my view she passes the Biblical tests of a prophet.

    http://www.bibleplus.org/prophecy/visions-egw/tests_of_a_true_prophet.htm


    As Noted in my previous post - there are tons of areas in her writings were there is a clear "Claim" to see things in prophetic vision (including other planets BTW) - so the issue is not that she did not "make that claim". The issue is whether she actually is a real - genuine inspired prophet or a false one. The option that she never makes a claim to inspiration is not possible.

    My argument on crossdenomination prophet "Testing" is that you can only find another denomination's prophet to BE a true prophet IF they never speak on areas of doctrinal differences and claim that what they are saying is "from God".

    But if they do claim messages from God that are on some of your very areas of doctrinal difference with that "other denomination" then anyone outside of that group would have to conclude that their OWN denomination is the Biblically correct one - and therefore the message could not possibly be from God.

    That means a Calvinist would have to reject Ellen White for all the Arminian positions she promomted as being a part of a message from God.

    That means that a JW or Mormon would have to reject her based on her pro-Trinitarian statements claimed to have come from God.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  20. av1611jim

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    Or just plain reject her based SOLELY on biblical grounds.

    1Ti 2:11
    Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
    1Ti 2:12
    But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
    1Ti 2:13
    For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
    1Ti 2:14
    And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

    Now...we have a multitude of MEN in subjection to a WOMAN'S teachings in the SDA church. How "biblical" is that?

    Not!

    In HIS service;
    Jim
     

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