Emergent Connections -- Beth Moore

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by papagiorgio200, Jan 26, 2010.

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  1. papagiorgio200

    papagiorgio200
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    I wish to here challenge the idea that Beth Moore is not leaning towards a pagan point of view. In the DVD, Be Still, the main "character" is Richard Foster. Richard Foster is one the main proponents of a newer meditation form that is creeping into the Evangelical/Reformed/Baptist arena. How can I call it pagan? simple, and I quote Foster:


    I have in-depth definitions of what "astral projection" is if you follow the links in the quotes. So anything to do with such a person makes me suspect, as, I am suppose to test all things and hold fast to that which is good. Another person Moore is close to is David G. Benner, who, is the reason I first got involved in this topic of study. I was taking my last class at seminary and it was an integrative Bible Counseling class, and Benner was on the materials list. As I make a habit of, most authors recommended or on the required reading list I will get most of what they write and reference those works as well. This is just one troubling resource I found out in the ether called the internet as reading through his Papa Prayer raised some red-flags in my mind:

    Beth has an unhealthy view of generational sin, almost identical to the "deliverance" ministry of Neil Anderson. One site builds their case against Beth this way:

    Take note that due to many ideas infiltrating my church caused me to leave ("me" defined: my kids grew up there, my wife and I had our marriage saved there... we loved our church and leaving it was hard). I had a new pastor to our church's staff discuss my seminary class with me, to my surprise, he had been involved in this "emergent" movement for over a decade. He knew I was a reader so he dropped off an armfull of books -- which caused me to buy about thirty books by these authors, I read them, then I bought the books critical of them. This is the ideas gleened from these books dropped off to me by a pastor; and keep in mind that Beth Moore is intimately involved with many of them:

    1. that the first three miracles in John were inserted by writers to “woo in pagans,” as they are themselves adopted from pagan stories (something you referred to as an “interesting theory”);
    2. the Virgin Birth was also a deep seated fear of sexuality and not really a miracle;
    3. books that teach that penal substitution as a vile doctrine;
    4. that Hell is not a place for persons to be placed after a future judgment, and that Hell is actually here now and that we must bring in God’s Kingdom (separate from that future judgment);
    5. these books say we do not have the Gospel right yet;
    6. they teach that travelling to Buddhist temples and practicing meditative techniques in these temples is Christian;
    7. they show that many of the practices rejected by the Reformers are in fact useful to the Christian;
    8. they show that Yoga can make one closer to God and to realize and experience the “divine;”
    9. they teach that the doctrines of the Trinity, nature of Christ, nature of Scripture, and the nature of marriage are “still on the table,” doctrinally;
    10. teach that Paul was really communicating Platonism and not bringing us Scripture;
    11. on-and-on.

    While I am sure many here can pick apart each book or author/quote and make the conversation die the death of a thousand qualifications (Ravi Zacharias) -- taken as a whole, this entire movement is a threat to the heart-and-soul of the Christian faith, and may be a great falling away. The final or last straw that caused me to leave my church of almost 12-years was the use of a book with the men's college group. I have many audio resources linked off of my critique of this book... so plan on taking some time with this if you are serious about this topic. As you read my critique, keep in mind the following idea from Robert Culver:

    God Bless and Much Thought [the two go well together].
     
  2. Johnv

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    I don't think you can qualify this as paganism, since paganism involves the worship of fictitious deities (often being polytheistic). Also, it might be in error to use the Emergent issue as an ad homimem. There are some emergent practices that are perfectly permissible, and there some that are not. We tend to make the mistake of presuming that use of emergent customs means a church is emergent, or that a church that uses the term "emergent" in describing itself is categorically unchristian in its practice. But that is frequently untrue.

    In regards to Moore, it's little more than an ad hominem accusation to presume that, since Moore is associated with Foster, and that Foster is associated with the Emergent movement, that Moore's view is pagan.
     
  3. Johnv

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  4. papagiorgio200

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    JohnV, I almost gave the reasoning in my original post why I reposted it here, now I am sorry I didn't. However, here it goes. Usually to restart a thread that has a last post date of 6-20-2008 (by gb93433) is bad forum manners. I didn't realize this strain was as old as it was -- the proverbial "my bad" -- so I decided to start afresh this conversation. JohnV, I go back to 1996 and debating/discussing in these type of settings, which I rarely do any longer because of my blogs. But I posted before I looked at the time-and-date stamp of the last person who posted in the previously linked strain (by you). So really, the previous post in an already existing strain should be the one of concern, and not this one -- at least in the unwritten code of forum debates/discussions.

    Thank you for your concern and care however. These forums couldn't operate as efficiently as they do without people like you... for this I salute you.

    Papa Giorgio.
     
  5. donnA

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  6. papagiorgio200

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    Paganism -- Pantheistic

    Again, I said she was "leaning towards a pagan point of view," not pagan. Richard Foster teaches pagan practices (out of body meditations, astral projection). Beth Moore is on the Be Still DVD and supports practices that are part of what shouldn't be accepted from this movement (no matter how hard it is to define this group):

    You are right as well that there are positive aspects to this movement, nothing is totally negative. David Noebel highlighted some of the positive aspects of the movement:

    This being said, Beth has her foot in the door fully with Richard Foster in this idea that these meditative practices taken from a pantheistic strain of eastern practices (polytheism does not need to be posited here, but Richard Foster accepts fully Henry Nouwen and Thomas Merton understanding of his faith, as do all on the Be Still video do. Even Rick Warren is getting his feet wet in this pagan (remember, pantheistic) yoking. This next quote comes from, again my chapter, but this large quote is from David Cloud's book, Contemplative Mysticism:

    Beth is just one cog in this larger machine that taken as a whole is a threat to the historic, orthodox faith.
     
  7. papagiorgio200

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    Hop on Down the Rabbit Trail Peter Rabbit

    Just in case person's here do not take the care to follow the links provided, I will provide a bit more info from them to make clear these connections that people so often dismiss as ad homonym. Here for instance is my Lighthouse trails link in the original post (just a snippet):

    I have noted elsewhere on the ether of the internet Brian McLaren's deep connections to the Jesus Seminar fellow Marcus Borg. To know who Marcus Borg is and the positions the Jesus Seminar takes, I suggest a wonderful book: Jesus Under Fire: Modern Scholarship Reinvents the Historical Jesus, by Michael J. Wilkins and J. P. Moreland (editors); or his debate with William Lane Craig.

    At any rate, this newer movement, taken as a whole is very troublesome to say the least. Now, if you follow a link from that Lighthouse Trails article down its rabbit trail, you find this:

    Oh what a tangled web we weave. Of course all this was discussed many years ago in a now free book on-line (click on the book graphic from my site): Christianity and Liberalism. I hope one can see the dangers in not checking out these "teachers" before spreading them to the masses as authoritative. I think discernment is the idea/word of the week here.
     
  8. Johnv

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  9. papagiorgio200

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    [​IMG]
     
  10. Johnv

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  11. Revmitchell

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    The emergent church and all its practices should be avoided. Just because they may do a few things correctly does not speak to the core of the movement. It is completely heretical and consumed with pure liberalism. It seeks to avoid being identified with any one thing but liberals always run from identification. They are sneaky and not to be trusted.
     
  12. papagiorgio200

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    If you are reinstating your "scratched post," then I already responded to it -- in a manner that is quite in-depth, which may be unfitting for a person who merely labels other. Dennis Prager talks about this labeling, I guess you can add "trolling" to his list:

    [​IMG]
     
    #12 papagiorgio200, Jan 27, 2010
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  13. papagiorgio200

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    Thanks Rev, I was starting to feel alone.
     
  14. Johnv

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    Wow, first you whine and moan about ad hominems, and then you use an ad hominem yourself. Yet none of this changes the fact that you are a
    [​IMG]
    True, but just because one associates with someone from an emergent background does not make one suspect. That's ad hominem by definition.
     
    #14 Johnv, Jan 27, 2010
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  15. papagiorgio200

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    Wow, first you whine and moan about ad hominems, and then you use an ad hominem yourself. **Personal attack and oversized image removed**

    (JohnV, I've been debating/discussing topics with skeptics and fellow believers since 1996/1997... I can play your game all-day long, but I won't. This is my last response to you. Others here, take note that like the title of my original post in another strain, I have shown that Beth Moore [is] Guilty by Her Own Writing and Association here in this thread.)
     
    #15 papagiorgio200, Jan 27, 2010
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  16. Johnv

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    That's really the best you can come up with th defend your trolling? Good luck with that.
     
  17. Robert Snow

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    Why are you so quick to declare someone a "troll?" Why not respond to his OP?
     
  18. preachinjesus

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    ***Oversized image is in bad taste and was removed***
     
    #18 preachinjesus, Jan 27, 2010
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  19. papagiorgio200

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    Great Stuff! I will add that to my litany of responses.


    ***Oversized images removed***

    ***Moderator note: Please become acquainted with posting rules regarding pasted images
     
    #19 papagiorgio200, Jan 27, 2010
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  20. Johnv

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    Forgive me, RS, the reason the OP qualifies as a troll is because this user has limited posts in multiple areas, all of which are, in effect, making the same argument. That fits the definition of trolling on this site. I did, though, post a response, without regard to the trolling nature of the OP.
     
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