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Emerging Church

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by DCNY, Apr 18, 2007.

  1. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    I have a friend who loves people and the church he pastors has been steadily growing for several years. The church sings mostly hymns and some contemporary music.

    Christian Schwartz in his book writes that church growth is directly to the church's ability to love people. "By this all men will know you are my disciples . . ."

    It is not about property and architectural evangelism but about loving people as Christ does. It is about being obedient to the command Jesus gave to go and make disciples not just coneverts or having a good time but giving them real joy by teaching them obedience to the Bible.
     
  2. dan e.

    dan e. New Member

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    I agree with you.

    I'm not trying to say that the traditional culture is gone...but rather not as prevalent. In fact, I don't mind the traditional setting. I enjoy it, and can definitely relate and worship there. My problem comes from the condemnation by the traditional side because things look different. By the way, a church lacking substance is not representative of the EC. I think we'd all agree we can find churches of all different types and cultures that are shallow and lack substance. That is why painting with a broad brush leads to wrong conclusions.
     
  3. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    I think history tells us a lot about the effecivenss of the church. Some of my friends who are missionaries in other countries have repeatedly told me how they notice that Sunday School lessons and preaching have been watered down each time they return to the states.
     
  4. preachinjesus

    preachinjesus Well-Known Member
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    And this is exactly where discussions like this should happen. While I am all for substantive preaching (really I am) I am more in favor of substantive relationships.

    The Emergent Church calls is missional living. It is living the Gospel, being the Gospel where ever we go.

    I can create great, in depth sermons. I can get to the meat of a text. (Not bragging just being honest, seminary gives you the tools to do this.) But they will bring only a certain, small, percentage of hearers to the place where the convictional power of the Holy Spirit will work in their lives and they will acknowledge God's call on their lives. That percentage dramatically rises when I develop a relationship with people in my neighborhood and show them Jesus while getting into meaningful life with them. This is the key to the Gospel...you and me living it out faithfully :laugh:
     
  5. preachinjesus

    preachinjesus Well-Known Member
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    um, not sure where to start. Give me a bit of guidance and I'll try to make it clear.

    Basically my point is Paul is saying that the "worldiness" isn't so much bringing (what some might call) secular methodologies into the Church as much as it is keeping secular behavior out of the church (lying, bribery, sexual immorality, deceit, arrogance, impiety, etc.) Methodology clearly wasn't an issue with Paul...sinfulness was.
     
  6. preachinjesus

    preachinjesus Well-Known Member
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    postmodernism isn't a subculture. It is rapidly becoming the culture. If you believe otherwise you don't get what postmodernism really is in the scheme of things.

    This isn't about subcultures and praxis. This is a complete epistemological shift. This isn't one two small subcultures going at it, this is basic understandings of how we know and exist in our societies and communities.

    I think you've got some great Scriptures, but are limiting the scope. The reality is that we must do what we can to allow people to drop their barriers to the Gospel.

    Paul seemed to have no problem contextualizing his Gospel presentations and mixing metaphors to allow for increased access to God's Word.

    yeah, but shouldn't we do everything in our ablity to reach everyone with the Gospel? Why should we only reach rich white people and not poor Hispanic people?

    completely agree

    yet postmodernism isn't a "subculture" it is a growing epistemological shift that will soon over take modernism. Modernism is our current culture (well maybe more like hypermodernism) just like premodernism was the predominate culture in Christ's time. The Gospel existed in both and will continue to exist in postmodernism. It is not bad, it is not good, it just is the predominate cultural shift that is coming.

    The Emergent Church wants to be able to address this and move the Church into a conversation place wher we can make the Gospel relevant and communicable to postmoderns just as it did for Moderns and just as it did for premoderns.

    again, this is the basic thing behind the Emergent Church if you don't get it you don't the Emergent Church.:saint:
     
  7. Andy T.

    Andy T. Active Member

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    Hopefully, when the EC reaches postmodern people with the Gospel, it will point out in their discipling of these people that postmodern thinking is anti-Biblical. The same as with modern thinking. Both are anti-Biblical. Therefore, the Gospel cannot be distorted to the point that it conforms with any worldly philosophies like postmodernism, modernism or fill-in-the-blank. The Gospel is foolishness to those who are perishing.

    I fear that many in the EC movement have gone too far and have distorted the Gospel and the importance of Biblical truth, but I realize that some, like Mark Driscoll, appear to not be going in that direction.
     
    #47 Andy T., Apr 19, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 19, 2007
  8. dan e.

    dan e. New Member

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    I don't think it is about "post-modern thinking" when interpreting the Bible. It is about understanding postmodernism to work out the Great Commission. Using the culture, which I don't think is bad, to reach it. Again, I'm making a distinction between things that are cultural and things that are worldly.


    I agree though....many have gone way too far.
     
  9. 2 Timothy2:1-4

    2 Timothy2:1-4 New Member

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    There is no epistemological shift. The postmodern subculture doesn't have the barriers that is being presented by the EC. And the church needs to be careful not to work to take the place of the Holy Ghost in manipulating conviction. For example:

    The setting for the church is not a barrier for understanding english that is spoken when we preach the gospel. The clothes I wear have no impact on whether one will understand the gospel when I preach it to them. "Shifting' to teaching in a circle rather than have the man called of God to preach the word(2 Timothy 4:1-4) is not removing a barrier to hearing the gospel. There is nothing that the EC is doing that removes any barriers.

    It is a false ideology that man can only understand the gospel in some particular atmosphere. There is one biblical way to prepare for the preaching of the gospel. You will find that in Psalm 126:5,6.

    What the EC is subscribing to is that the church should provide the right atmosphere and wear the right clothes that matches the world so as to gain the trust of the world. But you do not find such in scripture.
     
  10. PastorSBC1303

    PastorSBC1303 Active Member

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    Still waiting on answers....
     
  11. 2 Timothy2:1-4

    2 Timothy2:1-4 New Member

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    Where did you ever get the idea that I have have come to conclusions whithout checking any primary sources?
     
  12. dan e.

    dan e. New Member

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    How have you gotten any of these conclusions? Mind manipulating is not a postmodern thing.....it is a human thing that has happened forever. Turn on the local tele-evangelist. Who said anything about man only being able to understand in a particular atmosphere? You are making this up. Nobody is doing these things to gain the trust of the world. This is why you aren't getting it. People are dressing differently and setting different atmospheres because it is about the CULTURE THAT THEY ARE FROM. That is what they are saying....times are changing. It is time to stop expecting people to show up in suits, ties, sign up for Wednesday night dinner, participate in AWANAS, and all the rest of the typical traditional settings. None of that is bad, and that culture still exists in places....but it does not exist as much, and will likely not exist in 50 years. Nobody is doing anything to please the culture....they are changing things up because they are part of the postmodern culture. There is nothing wrong with that.
     
  13. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    Know nothing of the book (wasted time I would say).

    The "movement" is nothing more than the all-loving commune group, sitting around strumming on their guitars, and then bring in the drummers later. These are the "flower people of love, praise, and worship" of Woodstock, those so very enlightened of the "60's.

    The Emerging Church doesn't seem to have form, a true perceptual structure. It is a "moving target", and if we take specific aim, we will be as the "dog chasing its tail". We use the "shot gun" the Word of God, the "grace commission", as it goes forth covering the earth. It will hit the intended targets. It (they) will pass and these modern day "hippies", the "Jesus Creed" of the 60's (Hippies further back), will go down in flames. Then it will start all over; same song, same verse with a new cover.

    Some see it as a "god send" for those who write books, and songs. The songs already have a "foot hold" in many churches, with chanting in song, over and over again the same words, I, I, I, Worship, Worship, Worship, Praise, Praise, Praise, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus. Are "beads" next? We are warned of such things.
     
  14. dan e.

    dan e. New Member

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    I am now 100% dumber for having read this.

    This is the most uninformed statement about something that you CLEARLY have something against. Dude....you've got some problems if you get set off like this on a question about a book. You sound angry. Calm down.
     
  15. 2 Timothy2:1-4

    2 Timothy2:1-4 New Member

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    You are deceived about the prevelanece of this post modern mind set. It is nothing more than a fad just as the hippy subculture was a fad. And this postmodern "mindset"f is nothing but a spin off of those ideas. But I wll tell you "where I get it". As I read the writings of those in the EC what I see over and over again is we must reach the "culture"(which is actually a subculture) in a way they will understand. So all the things you view as "traditional" are avoided so as to reach this post modern subculture. The typical view is that there are people who will not accept God because of what other people wear, or if they have church in a church building, or if the preacher preaches behind a pulpit.

    It is the same false idea that a biker cannot be reached unless someone like him is the one to aproach him. Now you disagree with me about what the EC is in one way. When I talk with others in the EC they have a completely different explanation than you do.

    In the end the main defense of the EC is "We are not wrong just misunderstood". Islam says the same thing as well as mormons, and JW,s. Do I think that folks in the EC are necessarily lost like the cults I mentioned? Not at all but all false teachings throughout history have used the "misunderstood" argument.
     
  16. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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    You allowed this for you could have been 100% smarter if you understood.

    I do thank you for your reply dan e, and the compliment. I'll bet you are a "dandy" yourself. I see you did not take to what many can see is happening in our churches today. My post was for enlightenment, but know there are some now in the churches that are looking for something new.

    You are right for I do see something wrong in this movement that is not really "new" at all. We should all be "concerned", and turn it over to the Lord, by preaching His Word, and not allowing any others to divert us away from spreading the Word of Grace to the world.
     
  17. ituttut

    ituttut New Member

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  18. Gold Dragon

    Gold Dragon Well-Known Member

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    Culture wars in Christianity go back as far as the 1st century.

    Paul had to deal with Jewish Christians saying that Helenistic Christians were sinful for all sorts of things like not circumcising new believers, not eating food sacrificed to idols, etc.

    Eastern Christians and Western Christians divided around the first millenia in the Great Schism over cultural issues that some consider to be theological. The Roman view of authority and the role of the Pope in contrast to more Greek/Asian views of authority. Wordings of major creeds due to Greek or Latin vocabulary.

    The Prostestant - Catholic schism was also largely about culture with the Roman Catholic Magistrate's slowness to change and correction of error while the Prostestant nations were moving well beyond them.

    The Evangelical - Fundamentalist schism also had cultural factors with a rural/urban element.

    The list goes on.
     
  19. dan e.

    dan e. New Member

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    Keeping all those views that are CLEARLY unbiblical aside, such as debating whether hell is real, or the Bible is totally without error or not authoritative, such as some of the well known authors usually "representing" the EC....
    Wouldn't it make sense that things will begin to change with the culture? Think about it....more and more leaders are born in the '70s and '80s. They are from a different generation and postmodern culture is not all about how one approaches the Bible. It is a culture. Does it not make sense to anyone that things will change with the culture? I'm not talking about doctrines. Why don't we have more cathedral style churches, or similar architecture?....because that is not our culture. How come hymns are being re-done with different music styles?.....because of the culture. We could talk about a bunch of stuff. Equating EC with some of the people "representing" is not wise, because they aren't very representative of everyone. It would be like comparing all fundamentalists with KJVO advocates. For the record, I don't disagree with the things you are saying. I just disagree with the idea that it is representative of the EC...because it isn't. I would say if you want to learn more broadly about it (which you may not), than read different authors. Ed Stetzer, Mark Driscoll, Leonard Sweet, Erwin McManus. Not to say you'd think all those guys are all terrific...I'm sure you'll pick something about them...but they are also in contrast with some "representations" of EC.
     
  20. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    Dollars. Most of them hardly have any money and do not know what it is to sacrifice.
     
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