Emmanuel Baptist Theological Seminary

Discussion in 'Baptist Colleges / Seminaries' started by dallas, Jun 15, 2006.

  1. dallas

    dallas
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    This is EBTS of Newington, CT

    I am a graduate of EBTS! I would encourage any pastor or church member to consider taking a class from EBTS. Dr. J. Michael Bates is the pastor of Emmanuel Baptist Church and President of EBTS. The Dean is Dr. Tom Strouse. I am very grateful to the Lord for leading me to this wonderful, and biblical seminary. It has made a tremendous impact in my life.

    It is balanced, and biblical. I encourage everyone thinking of further training to visit the website of the seminary:

    http://www.emmanuel-newington.org/seminary/index.htm

    Also, on this site you will find a number of many helpful articles on the Bible issue, the local church, and such.

    Have you folks heard of EBTS? If so, what are your thoughts?
     
  2. Rhetorician

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    "Church Schools"

    Dallas,

    First of all I am very encouraged by your desire to serve our lovely Lord Jesus Christ by furthering your Biblical and theological education. For that you are to be commended.

    However, I have a few questions about any "church run school" or seminary?

    Many is the time that these programs are not much more than an "Institute Program." They seem to take on the philosophy of ministry of the founding father oftentimes that of the rather narrow-minded IBF pastor.

    B/c they are "in house" programs they have neither the money or clout to draw true academic personnel who can teach the men on the proper level of graduate work. They usually have other pastors who may have many years of successful pastoral experience but very little, if any, true academic credentials.

    Then of course there is the need and issue for TRACS, Regional Accreditation, or ATS accreditation. Without these the whole thing can become not much more than a glorified SS Class.

    These issues have been beaten to death here on the BB. You can do a search and find many discussions about them. It seems that when the arguments come up someone always wants to take a firm, sincere, although somewhat misguided stance about "his or her alma mater" and declare it to be different from all of the other "in house" schools out there.

    Please do not take offense at anything that I have said. It is not meant against you or the school in question. But this section of the BB is a place to get negative feedback from a question like yours "quick, fast, and in a hurry!"

    Let me know how (if) your church school is different. Waiting for a reply!

    sdg!

    rd
     
  3. dallas

    dallas
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    Response to Rhetorician's comments

    Rhetorician,

    I am sorry that you take such a popular, albeit unbiblical position. Your response did seem to have an apparent genuine response to "straighten" me out on this horrible notion of having a mere local church training men for the ministry. I honestly do believe you were very cordial and polite in your response, I will be likewise.

    I am well aware of the "questions" you have about church led schools. I suppose you would have me thank you for warning me about the dangers of the narrow minded churches and their pastors (or as you called them "founding fathers").

    I also know of the situation or problem (as you think of it) of "money or clout" to bring into the local church (l.c.) college/seminary men of "true academic" creditials. To answer this question directly, I would ask that you view the article I posted in the General Baptist Discussion section on "What Is Biblical Scholarship?" (It was posted a few days ago, it is still there as of this morning). What defines Scholarship? Paper hanging on a man's office wall? Abbreviations before or after a man's name? Or could it be a man who has made it it biblical duty to "study" the Scriptures, but not only study the Scriptures but to receive them? It is the Bible's position (thus God's) that every pastor is to be a scholar...every church member is to be a scholar, as well. (Yes, I am well aware that many have neglected/rejected this, and are not students of God's words-- therefore are not proper scholars of the Word of God). But to define scholarship by what (I believe) you would--is faulty and unbiblical. For the record, the men teaching at EBTS are qualified biblically and would even be so in your mind because of "proper initials before and after their name." However, each of them has the CONVICTION that the only institution that God has approved to "teach" the Bible is the l.c.

    The next point you offer to help me out on is the area of accreditation. This may blow your mind, but there are many churches who do not seek accreditation, because the autonomy of the l.c. There is a host more to say about accreditation but I'm sure you are aware of the points I would make.

    Again, one of the last points you make is how men often say their "alma mater" is different. First, truly my allegience in this matter is not to my alma mater. My allegiance is to the Scriptures. Matt. 28 (et. al.) gives the responsibility of teaching the "all things" of Scripture to the l. c., I Tim. 3:15 states that the l.c. is the "pillar and ground of the truth," II Tim. 2:2 states that within the context of the l. c. faithful men are to "commit" to other faithful men the things which they had been taught in the l.c.

    Much more could be said of course, and I have not taken offense to your questions. I just ask you to defend what you say from the Scriptures. The Bible is our FINAL AUTHORITY for Faith AND Practice. Then let it be so!!!
     
  4. UZThD

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    From where did the pres and the Dean get their docs?
     
  5. Rhetorician

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    Response

    Dallas,

    Thank you for the kind words. It is hard to know the tone of what someone intends via the medium of email or something like the BB. I do so understand your passion for the church being the place where men should be trained for the ministry. IF the church could fulfill that design then I would be all for it. The glitches and gaps of the church school are many and varied and we have not the time nor the space to negotiate them here.

    I appreciate your invitation to defend my points. If you will search out the questions raised on the at-large BB for the past year or so you will find many answers that not only I but many others have offered. To these I appeal.

    I would ask however, that you answer the question UZThD raised.

    Without getting into a whole big thing; one of the major fallacies under the church school paradigm is this. It has and maintains an overly simplistic narrowness that it cannot possibly overcome. Even if you have a good and Godly pastor; his learning, experiences, perspective, perceptions, etc. are too narrow to impart to the novice ministers. Let alone, the fact that one man can only be a specialist in one field of endeavor.

    If you want to see how this works on the grand scale, look at the end results of what Jack Hyles did and became. Granted, it may not be fair to bring up the best of bad examples to prove a point for argument sake. Nonetheless, mini-Popes are not any better than is the real one in Rome! Are they?

    Do not take me wrong! I cast no aspersions on the leadership of the school with which you have aligned yourself. I only speak from my perspective. And I am after all, an expert on my perspective.:laugh:

    All of my comments are only meant as observations for one who would want to prevent someone (anyone) from making a mistake by a narrow education.

    In Christ's love,

    sdg!

    rd:thumbs:
     
  6. garpier

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    Rhetorician,

    Would you please define what you mean by narrow. I am of the opinion the the Christian life is a narrow way, and am not sure what you mean by the term.

    Thanks
     
  7. Rhetorician

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    "Narrow"

    Garpier,

    I suppose that I am referring to "narrow" in the sense that I have seen the IBF pastors refer to it. They are the "us 4 and no more." I refer to it in the secondary separation type of mold or paradigm.

    More times than not the local "mini-Pope" knows more about everything than anyone else. He denigrates a liberal arts/public university education for a local "in house" church school education. I am of the opinion (and it is just not mine but shared by many on the BB) that a good university degree is the basis for all future learning, especially for one who is to minister to God's people.

    I am getting too deep too fast. I have, as well as other more articulate than myself, argued for a real world education for the minister in other places on the BB.

    I hope that clears the air enough for you? If it does not then please send me an email or PM?

    I look forward to the future dialogs. I am always open for good Christian conversation and opinions.

    sdg!:thumbs:

    rd
     
  8. dallas

    dallas
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    response

    rd,

    Allow me to first comment on the tone that I was and am still responding. I agree it is difficult to read a tone of email. I will and am trying to be courteous and not obnoxious. I will try to answer your questions in a short and concise manner...often times it then appears abrupt and rude. Also, I do not labour at grammar or spelling in this forum. So, forgive me.

    Instead of us conversing via this bb in large responses, perhaps I may pose a question and you, as well, that the other must answer from Scripture (not refer to others comments on the subject, or Baptist history, or experience). I do not profess to know everything or be the final authority on any subject, that honour is alone the Word of God.

    Question: Who did Christ commission to "make disciples," BY 1) Going, 2) Baptizing these new converts, 3) and Teaching them the "all things" of Scripture?
     
  9. garpier

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    Rhetorician
    Thank you for clarifying that for me. Do you think it is Biblical for a church member to forgo training in an "acreddited" institution and learn at the feet of a Bible centered pastor (not a Jack Hyles type)? Just curious.
    Thanks
     
  10. 4His_glory

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    Emmanuel is a KJVO school, as such I would not reccomend it. To call such an unbiblical postion "balanced" makes no sense to me. Also Strouse recently has written a ridiculous artical on a geocentric universe.
     
  11. dallas

    dallas
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    Can you refute a geocentricity from Scripture? You must since he supplied a clear presentation from Scripture!
     
  12. dallas

    dallas
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    Ah yes!!! The same ole, same ole. You sir, lump EBTS in with other KJVO schools (some often take an unbiblical or extreme position on the KJVO) and that is how you write them off. Again, you don't support with Scripture...You just simply dismiss them.
     
  13. Rhetorician

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    Response

    I might consider making a response to the latest question IF and only if you answer UZThD's question above.

    sdg!

    rd:smilewinkgrin:
     
  14. Rhetorician

    Rhetorician
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    Response Follow up

    In your OP (original post) you asked, "...what are your thought?"

    It seems you want to defend your school. Just another same ole same ole as the other brother said. It is OK by all of us if you want to attend that school. Just don't be offended when you ask an honest question and then get some honest answers.

    Many who are academics here on the BB believe that a good university liberal arts degree is a needed experience that lays the foundation for an accredited seminary MDiv for the pastor-teacher.

    And the broad educational experience that is gained by men who are renown in their fields of missions, Biblical studies, languages, church history, theology, et al cannot even begin to compare with the in house church school.

    But again, you are more than welcome to your opinion to attend what and where you want. The Lord's vineyard is a big place and there is room for all of us with our several callings, gifts, experiences, and educational traditions.

    So, I bid you God Speed and may your tribe increase. God certainly has a work for you if you are called and equipped. I would just argue for the best training available. Wouldn't you?

    In Christ's love for the Kingdom's increase.

    sdg!

    rd

    PS. I hope to be done with this discussion and I also hope to not trouble you again.:thumbs:
     
  15. PreachTREE

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    Ah yes, the geocentric universe. Which proves a point. You need qualified teachers.
     
  16. PreachTREE

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    Clear presentation? He uses I Chronicles 16:30 to complement his geocentric universe. Read vv. 32-33. Do fields and trees sing and rejoice?

    whatever, pointless thread. Go to a school with credentials.
     
  17. UZThD

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    Most of what I say does not relate to learning praxis. IMO this can be taught by experienced pastors!

    I speak in generalities because I do not know the pres or dean of this school. Their docs may be from schools recognized as quite rigorous, I don't know.

    I am unsure that an argument should be made that because Jesus, Peter, and et al did not go to seminary or that colleges or seminaries are not words of the Bible, that a church school is the only viable source of education for teachers, pastors, missionaries and so forth.

    Unlike Jesus , I am not God,and unlike Peter I am not inspired, so I learn by study not by a pretense of magically knowing. Further, I am separated from the apostolic church by thousands of years in which dogma evolved, societies and languages changed, heresies developed, and both great and narrow differences separated Christians into many denominationsn and Baptists too into varied views and positions. That's a lot to understand!

    Higher Christian education as I see it is best done under those highly qualified to provide it. Many realize, eg, that if one is to teach Church History, Historical Theology, New Testament language, exegesis , and literature, Old Testament language, exegesis, and literature, or Systematic Theology at a graduate level, then intensive training in the precise area(s) taught is required.

    Many feeling the assurance that God has called them to teach, say Systematic Theology, after finishing a four year BA in generaral ed or in Bible (I did both) , then do an MDiv, which is three more years. Then they do a ThM which is supposed to be one more year (but as I was then working teaching public school, mine took two) . Then they enter a school like, The Masters or The Baptist in Pa or TEDS or Dallas or, in my case a foreign school, wherein a doc is earned in three to five more years.

    So, in order to feel qualified to teach graduate studies, such as these have labored very stenuously for elevan to thirteen years to become fairly expert in one area of higher Christian education. Yes! I sat under such men at Point Loma University, Western Seminary, and Unizul. These men gave up much to learn and to earn their qualifications. They gave up much to become a "doctor," (ie, one learned in one's field). The ones that I have sat under do not assume to know. They labor to know!

    So, eg, when Grudem is challenged by his understanding of the word Paul uses in 1 Cor 11:3 (kephale) that the word does not mean "source of", he is able to locate 2500 occasions of usage in Greek literature, the LXX, the NT, and the fathers and to argue his view from that.

    And, an unnamed student when dissertating is able to justify his thesis that the Son is not eternally relationally subordinate, in contrast to the view of Ware, Tertullian, , Shedd, Berkhof, Dahms, Lewis and Demarest, Wiley, Arminius, and so forth, in part by locating and contrasting scores of Logos -Sarx vs, Logos Anthropos Christologists, throughout church history,and by understanding the many complex issues which divide these schools of interpretation, come to believe that the said subordination of Christ is in humanity not in deity and justify that opining exegetically and theologically. That doctoral process took several years of putting learning first in one's life.

    Of course, instead of doing that one could just say, "I'm right."

    Realizing that grad level teachers in recognized institutions have done these 11-13 years of rigorous learning to earn the doc degree, to be able to teach, it has become fashionable, and sadly acceptable in some churchly arenas where lay people do not understand higher Christian ed., for the would be professors to adorn themselves with degrees not so rigorously earned. They find easier ways to get degrees.Most laymen do not understand the difference. If their leader is called "Dr." it is just assumed the he must know, and have academically experienced, what a BB Warfield or a Chas Hodge knows and experienced .

    Despite it not (along with seminary) being in the Scripture, the title becomes coveted by those who have not really done the work which normally is expected by academia to earn the title, so as to give the appearance of academic qualification to their efforts.

    The holes in the learning of some of these are plugged by assertions of inerrancy, authority, and rejection of that not learned as needlesss or unscriptural. They becomes popish and not only are assumed nearly inerrant in what they know but also in what should be learned. Since they have not learned something, trhat area of knowledge is deemed worthless.

    No, seminaries are not in Scripture. What is, IMO, is in Scripture is the ethic of honesty in all areas including higher learning. To claim that a doctor is a doctor regardless of what substance and rigor went into his/her education , is not in Scripture either.
     
  18. UZThD

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    Grudem thinks, and has well evidenced, that 'kephale' means 'authority over' not source of.
     
  19. Brandon C. Jones

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    This has been an interesting thread. My two cents are this. The qualified professors that UZ speaks of avoid being as narrow as those that Rhet has mentioned above.

    Perhaps this can be the litmus test: a school and/or teacher is too narrow when his or her view on anything general or specific in theology is the "biblical" view and every other view is the "unbiblical" view. I've found that many church-schools use the word "biblical" as an adjective in front of everything and all that word means is that it's the church-school's position on something.

    BJ
     
  20. 4His_glory

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    No Strouse did not prove geocentricity from Scripture. He said "The Bible never mentions the earth revolves around the sun." Well with that kind of reasoning I could also say the Bible never mentions the sun revolving around the earth.

    Sience has proved the sun to be the center of the galaxy, Scritpure never mentions anything about this one way or another.
     

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