End Time Exegesis

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Truth Files, Sep 12, 2010.

  1. Truth Files

    Truth Files
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    A testing of the prophetic details

    Who can see the differences in these passages of scripture?

    Are they both viewing the same exact time; or are they different and separate events?

    Detection of the differences is significant and necessary for end time study

    These two:

    Revelation
    6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

    6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

    6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

    6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

    6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

    6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

    Matthew
    24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
     
    #1 Truth Files, Sep 12, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 12, 2010
  2. HankD

    HankD
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    I would agree that getting the timing of these events correct takes some discernment.

    Why don't you tell us your take on these passages?

    For one thing Revelation 6 is dealing with the seal judgments and appears to be an allusion to the kings of Hosea 10/Malachi 3 and the events Jesus speaks of in Luke 23:30.

    However this thing about mountains falling on us, etc. seems to be a popular figure of speech in biblical eschatological terminology and maybe not a good prophetic event marker.

    The Matthew 24:29-31 passage has a time of "tribulation" and a "trumpet" involved which (if it is one of the series of trumpets in the Revelation) comes after the seals and that is somewhat problematic.

    Then again it (the sending of angels) in this passage may be in alignment with Matthew 13:39.

    I have a feeling that whatever you say it is going to be challenged by others. But that's what the BB is all about, soul liberty...etc.

    HankD
     
  3. dwmoeller1

    dwmoeller1
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    First of all, there are various sorts of "differences" in the telling of an account(s). One person can give one set of details of an account and another can give another overlapping set of details. If there are 10 things that could be set about an event, they both might give 7 with some being the same and others being different. However, these differences do not logically lead to the conclusion that they must be speaking of different events.

    We see this sort of "difference" in the gospel accounts. One author gives a different set details than another of the same account yet Evangelicals agree on their sameness. Its typically called "harmony". Consider Mark 13 vs. Matt 24. In Mark's account of Christ's coming there is no trumpet, but in Mattew's account there is. Does this "difference" lead to the logical conclusion that they must be difference prophetical events? Septics are constantly pointing out these sorts of "differences" in Scripture to try and prove its fallibility but we would all agree that such efforts are fallacious. A difference in details does not logically lead to the conclusion that authors are speaking of different events.

    A very different type of "difference" is one where the accounts have mutually contradictory details. When this occurs, *then* we have a logical basis for arguing that they accounts are of different events. If one says that Christ when out into a boat to preach, and another says he went up into a mountain, then the natural conclusion is that these differences lead to the conclusion that different events are taking place.

    The same sort of logic should apply to prophetic language. So, are there differences in the passages from the OP? Certainly. Do they logically lead to the conclusion that they are speaking of different events? Not unless the details are mutually contradictory. Pointing to differences that aren't mutually contradictory as evidence of different events are being spoken of would be fallacious.
     
  4. dwmoeller1

    dwmoeller1
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    The passages compared and contrasted. Looking to see if any of the differences are mutually contradictory:
    - Seal and great earthquake in Rev; no mention in Matt. A difference but not mutually contradictory.
    - Sun as black sackcloth, moon as blood in Rev; Sun and moon darkened. Perfectly complementary.
    - Stars fall as if shaken in Rev; stars fall and heavenly bodies shaken. Perfectly complementary.
    - Heavens depart, mountains and islands moved in Rev; no mention in Matt. A difference but not mutually contradictory.
    - Trumpet and gathering together in Matt; no mention in Rev (and, FWIW, there is no mention of this anywhere in Rev). A difference but not mutually contradictory.
    - Fear and hiding in Rev, no mention in Matt. A difference but not mutually contradictory.

    So, as far as I can see, there are differences, but none are mutually contradictory. Based on looking at these passages alone, it would be fallacious to conclude that they are different events, or that they are the same events for that matter. The similarities are just as significant as the differences, but neither can logically lead to one conclusion or the other by themselves. It is possible that similar but different events are being described, but it is equally possible that the same general event is being described from different "perspectives". One would have to look at the larger picture of Scripture to come to a more firm conclusion than that.
     
    #4 dwmoeller1, Sep 13, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 13, 2010
  5. Truth Files

    Truth Files
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    Hank asked:

    "Why don't you tell us your take on these passages?"

    I will soon ..... hold on

    Just wanted others to ponder and respond first
     
  6. lastday

    lastday
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    Lastday

    dwmoeller1,
    Thank you for analyzing the "difference" between Matt.24:29-31 and Seal 6.
    You wrote:
    The PreTrib Rapture doctrine posits the Day of the Lord as being a period of
    God's Wrath so that Believers must be taken to heaven before Daniel's 70 "7".
    Since Jesus placed the "gathering of the elect from earth after the great tribulation, Truth Files believes he has rescued this belief by
    just quoting prophet Joel's comment that the Signs of this Day occur 7 years earlier because they are seen before the 70th "7" begins.
    You have shown Truth the "two sets of signs" may refer to the same Event.
    However, I suggest that Revelation does include the Trumpet of Matt.24:31
    by its use of Chiasmos (Inverse Parallelism).
    You write:
    Rev.6:13, together with 11:15, form a Chiasm that uses "inverse parallelism" to that of Matt.24:29-31. We may prove the 7th Trumpet sounds on the
    same 12-Hour DAY that the "sun turns dark and the WHOLE moon to blood".
    Do you know of evidence that shows this should be/must be the case?

    We are finding out John often used Chiasmos in the Book of Revelation.
    For instance, He was "about to reign as King over the nations" in Rev.12:5.
    At the 7th Trumpet "God begins to reign because His wrath HAS COME and
    the appointed Time for the 3 R's: Resurrection, Rewards to the Saints and Retribution upon all the wicked...on the Day of the Lord.

    Can we not argue that the Trumpet of Rev.11 may sound three times?

    Once for the Coronation of Christ because "God's wrath has come and the
    appointed (kairos) time to "judge and reward saints and destroy enemies!
    A second time for "God to bring the dead in Christ with Jesus" so that He
    may gather the elect from earth to heaven...Mark 13:27!! And a third time
    as He sends the angels with a loud Trumpet blast to complete the gathering
    out of the 4 winds so that those who survive will join Him at the Synagogue
    in the sky!!! Matt.24:31; 2 Thess.2:1.

    Please note how the aorist tense, indicative mood for "has come", indicates seven major events in Revelation that must take place on the Day of God Almighty.
    Mel
     
  7. dwmoeller1

    dwmoeller1
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    First of all, a clarification. My FWIW in parenthesis was in reference only to a mention of the gathering of the saints, not to the trumpet. I only mention it to reinforce the fact that differences of details does not logically imply difference events - both sides in the rapture debate would agree that the gathering occurs sometime in the framework of Rev even though its not specifically mentioned.

    Your reasoning seems to be based on the fact that chiasm are present. I am not seeing them. So that I can better understand what you are getting at, for each chiasm can you identify the particular elements. IOW, if the chiasm is ABBA, please identify the A and B elements, or if ABCCBA, give A, B and C. Thanks.
     
  8. Truth Files

    Truth Files
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    These two passages of scripture have different timings and events

    The first is at the beginning of the Lord’s coming hour [time] of trial [Revelation 3:10]

    The second is at the ending of the same

    There will be a time lapse of 2550 days between which will incorporate the Lord’s unprecedented wrath and judgment of and intransigent world



    Revelation
    6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

    6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth [Revelation 12:4; 12:7-9; 12:12] , even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

    6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

    6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

    6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

    6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

    earthquake
    the stars are fallen angelics [if a star fell to the earth the earth would be obliterated]
    worldwide geographical upheaval
    humans hide from the Lord’s judgments
    the beginning of His wrath has come
    no gatherings


    Matthew
    24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven [cosmic disturbances], and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

    24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    no earth quake
    no worldwide geographical upheaval
    humans mourn when the Lord appears
    after the tribulation of those days
    gatherings of the suvivors
     
  9. dwmoeller1

    dwmoeller1
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    All of the above may be accurate (or not), but the differences you point out do not lead to this conclusion. If we merely compare the passages, it would be fallacious to conclude that they are speaking of different events (as it would be fallacious to conclude from comparing them that they are speaking of the same event.) IOW, just the similarities don't prove them to be the same event, neither do the differences in details prove them to be different events. You would have to stretch logic and Scripture much to far to make either conclusion from these two passages alone.

    The best one can say is that that is *some* reason why they *might* be speaking of different events...and *some* reason why they *might* be speaking of the same event. Which is the best view can only be determined by looking at other passages.

    1. Regarding your claims of no this and no that for each passage. It is true that there are no mention of these things in the various passages, but that does not equate to them not occurring at those times. For instance, the lack of a mention of an earthquake in Matt 24 does not lead to the logical conclusion that there will be none during the events of Matt 24. Using this lack of a mention to conclude that it won't happen is known as the fallacy of argument from silence.

    2. It is interesting that, because the passage doesn't say there is, you claim that there is no earthquake in the events of Matt 24. However, you do claim that humans will mourn in the events of Matt 24 even though the passage doesn't say they will. Mistype or inconsistency? If the former, then wouldn't it seem unreasonable to say humans won't mourn when Christ comes after the Tribulation?

    3. Your take on stars falling to earth vs. stars falling from heaven seems extremely problematic. Your take on stars falling to earth is particularly interesting.
    a. The passage says nothing about angels falling to earth. By the standards of interpretation you set with regards to other unmentioned things, this seems contradictory. No gathering in Rev 6 event because the passage doesn't say so, but angels falling to earth even though the passage doesn't say so?

    b. What is very interesting is that you reach a non-literal reading (stars = angels) only by insisting on an absolute literal reading of the rest of the passage (falling to earth = literally falling to earth). Why not instead take either a non-literal view of "falling to earth" (they were really stars but they don't literally fall to the earth, eg. "cosmic disturbances" as in Matt 24), or a different non-literal view of stars (they were meteors or something like that)? This immediate jumping to stars = equals is highly fallacious when other reasonable (even by your own interpretive standards) alternatives exist. Its called the fallacy of begging the question.

    c. Then after insisting on a literal "falling to earth" in Rev 6, you then insist on a purely non-literal reading of "falling from heaven". Only by insisting on literal view of "falling" in Rev 6 and then denying it in Matt 24 can you reach this sort of "difference" between the two passages you claim. There is no logical or textual reason to do this. Thus, since *both* passages could be taken as a non-literal "cosmic disturbances" or a more literal (if scientifically imprecise by modern standards) "big honking meteor shower". Insisting that the same basic concept ("stars falling from heaven" is fully inclusive of "stars falling to earth" since, if they fall to earth they necessarily fell from heaven) is to be taken very differently in these two passages w/o any good logical or textual reason is, again, the fallacy of begging the question. How do you know the "falling" in one passage is literal but the other is not?


    So, unless I am missing something, your argument for these being necessarily different events is based on several counts of arguing from silence and a couple counts of begging the question. And if I somehow misconstrued your reasoning, please feel free to correct me.
     
  10. Truth Files

    Truth Files
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    "However, you do claim that humans will mourn in the events of Matt 24 even though the passage doesn't say they will"

    I think you have better read Matthew 24:30 again

    Matthew
    24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    No need to correct you

    Many do not have an in depth understanding of the prophetic scriptures

    Keep studying .... if you feel a drawing

    Maybe you will improve your knowledge

    The Lord will withhold nothing that He has intended to communicate in His Word

    But it takes the correct motive, dedication, paying attention to details, and His guidance for results
     
    #10 Truth Files, Sep 13, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 13, 2010
  11. lastday

    lastday
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    Lastday

    dwmoeller1,
    On the matter of Chiasm (Inverse Parallelism) and Clear Parallel Accounts.

    Important Chiasm in Revelation sets stage for 1260 Endtime Days.

    Rev.11 and Seal 6 require 1260 Endtime Days to immediately precede SC:

    A. Prophesied 1260 Endtime days precede the Lastday and Christ's SC.
    B. Following these days are Signs of the Lastday and time for the SC.

    The Inverse Parallel of Rev.12 also sets the stage for 1260 Endtime Days:

    B. Signs in heaven of Christ's first coming before His ascent to heaven.
    A. Followed by 1260 Endtime Days before Christ returns from heaven.

    Parallels Show the Endtime Progression starting with 1260 Days.

    Jesus and Revelation reveal 1260 Endtime Days precipitate the SC:

    A. Signs in the heavens immediately precede the Sign of the Son of Man.
    B. On the same Day the Son of Man appears with power and great glory.
    C. Great Trumpet sounds at the SC and to "judge/reward all the Saints".

    Chiasmos Parallels set relationship of 1260 Endtime Days to the SC.
    Mel
     
  12. dwmoeller1

    dwmoeller1
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    My mistake. I think I must have been looking at the Mark 13 account while I was writing that (happens when keeping up with multiple threads sometime :) ).

    But, just so we are clear though, that was one very minor point of mine. It changes nothing about the substance of my critique.

    So I am still looking forward to you addressing the substance of my post. :)
     
  13. dwmoeller1

    dwmoeller1
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    Can you do me a huge favor and cite the relevant verse(s) for each element above? Thanks.
     
  14. lastday

    lastday
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    dwmoeller1
    On the matter of Chiasm in Revelation,
    please go to my personl thread,
    "Sign of Son of Man".
    Mel Miller
     
  15. dwmoeller1

    dwmoeller1
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    Being new here, I will just ask...

    Is it reasonable to expect Truth Files to participate in a meaningful discussion, or should I just drop any such hopes and go on?
     
  16. Truth Files

    Truth Files
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    dw said:

    "So I am still looking forward to you addressing the substance of my post"

    I think that Revelation 6:12-17 is the beginning of the tribulation period and that Matthew 24:29-31 is the ending

    I see distinct differences in these two passages of scripture, but there are also a number of other reasons why the tribulation period must be a duration of 2550 days in length

    If you have further questions I will respond
     
  17. dwmoeller1

    dwmoeller1
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    None of this addresses the objections I raised in my post. You found an error on my part in a minor point. I acknowledged that error. The main substance of my post still stands.

    Seriously, can I expect that you will participate in an actual back and forth discussion? If not, thats fine, I will know what I can reasonably expect when I am considering responding to your posts and decide accordingly. I just figured asking openly up front rather than getting tired of waiting or trying to get you to react in some way was a more profitable course.
     
  18. Truth Files

    Truth Files
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    Let's look at it this way

    I always respond to those who have reasonable questions asked in a diplomatic fashion

    What I will not do is to engage one who comes to bicker and argue .... this behavior is not hard to detect

    I believe that this kind of bantering is adverse to the Lord's purposes and that it makes a mockery of christianity on a public forum

    So you must decide upon your approach

    If you chose otherwise that is ok with me

    But, if the dialogue begans to turn into the slightest form of emotional argumentation I will part company

    I intend to post a great deal of discovery on this forum for a period of time related to the prophetic scriptures and the main objective is to give witness to the validity of the Bible and what it claims to be

    Many today will not seek the Lord because they have no interest and feel that christianity is a man made religion with no foundational support

    One can ask me any question about my views of the Bible, and other theologies, and I will answer .... whether they think I know what I am talking about is not the issue as far as I am concerned

    I am an unemotional personality who does not include self seeking with my presentations and responses

    For example, I only pointed out that Matthew 24:29-31 does have those who will mourn, not as a criticism toward you, but as a fact which I think has important significance in understanding the difference between Revelation 6:12-17 and Matthew 24:29-31

    What I did not do was to then rub you nose in it as is often the case of many who come to the Internet forums with agendas and with intent to cause argumentation and division

    So if you can work with my style, make your comments and ask your questions

    If not, then it is best for both of us to keep a separate path on a public forum

    I will tell you if I intend to drop the encounter on any particular item .... I am very candid and direct about most issues if I think there is a good reason to be

    I am a trial lawyer by profession and my personality fits the job description

    And I take the study and presentation of Bible prophecy very seriously .... leaving no stone unturned
     
    #18 Truth Files, Sep 15, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 15, 2010
  19. dwmoeller1

    dwmoeller1
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    I don't quite follow here. I do my utmost to keep my discussion reasonable and unemotional. I truly want to know what and how you think (otherwise I would simply ignore you). I have raised my objections to your reasoning as void of emotion or personal attacks as I can. I am just wondering if I can expect you to deal directly with them or not. If you see me as one who "comes to bicker and argue", I am sorry that is the case and I respectfully disagree, but at least let me know what to expect from you regarding my posts up front. I have no problem with anyone's style as long as it remains intellectually honest and avoids judging my motives. So I have no problem working with your style at all - in as far as you have presented it, I prefer such a style.
     
  20. Truth Files

    Truth Files
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    "I am just wondering if I can expect you to deal directly with them or not"

    You can
     

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