Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Joseph_Botwinick, Aug 6, 2006.
To what is this passage referring?
I believe end times but didn't we recently have someone who separated the great day as the first advent and the dreadful day and the second coming?
Sorry to go off topic, I believe it is prophesy of the second coming of Christ.
When was it fullfilled, or when will it be fullfilled for those of you who are premillers?
The out pouring of the spirit is said to have happened at Pentecost or it could have been Ezekiel 39:28,29.
I don't think the later changes if you are pre trib or post trib. It should happen between the 6th and 7th seal. The difference is will the Church be on earth or with the Lord.
Peter says it was fullfilled in the second chapter of Acts. Ladies and gentlemen, the last days have already occurred.:smilewinkgrin:
Where did Peter say that the last days had come?
LOL, you a funny guy...
No, there are some who believe the out pouring of the spirit was when the spirit came in like a mighty wind.
Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance
This has to do with the instructions of Jesus when he told them to wait on the power.
There are others who believe this was the baptizing of the holy spirit Jesus told us in Luke 3:16
I should have worded my earlier statement as the difference between post and pre trib is where will the Church be during this time. Will we be on earth or will we be with the Lord (when is the rapture)?
All of the above is correct. It is also, as Peter says, the fullfillment of the prophecy of Joel about the last days.
I believe the rapture is something premillers made and is not taught in the Bible.
1 Thes 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
True, the word rapture is not used in the bible but definition of the word is. It is being used to describe an event not to teach a doctorine.
I am with you if we agree that both Jesus and Paul describe the same "rapture/gathering of the elect from earth to heaven to meet the Lord in the air at His coming and Presence" (erchomai and parousia) ... with the dead in Christ rising up first; then those who survive will meet them in the air and forever be with the Lord". Mark 13:27; I Th.4:13-17; Matt.24:31.
But you asked:
"Where did Peter say that the last days had come"?
In quoting Joel, Peter added that the "last days" had come. Joel gives the signs of the "Last Day" but does not mention the "last days". Daniel differs between the Endtime of 1290 last (endtime) days and the "end of days".
Hebrews 1:2 indicates we have been in the "last days" since Christ came to reveal the Father. Peter simply recognizes that fact in Acts 2:17 by noting that Joel was being fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost.
But there was a reason why Peter included that SIGNS of both the "great and terrible/great and glorious Day of the Lord" would precede the events of that Day, meaning the *Last Day* at the very "end of days"!!
Those saved on the Day of Pentecost and on the *Last Day* are included in Joel's prophecy because, in both cases, "all who call on the name of the Lord are saved/rescued/delivered". Joel 2:32; Acts 2:21. Jesus and Paul taught the same thing! I don't think our friend Joseph agrees with this.
But I think you are still not convinced that the "saints will be gathered together above to the Synagogue" IN THE SKY (2 Thes.2:1) at the Presence of Jesus on a cloud in power and great glory. That's when all of us will agree as One by sharing "the blessed hope onthe great and glorious Day of the Lord"! :love2:
Mel Miller www.lastday.net
Just checking to find out how many 'and's Bro. Mel Miller used:
Looks like 11 to me.
Here are the meanings of 'and' that are sitting close to the top of my head:
1. to connect two seperate events in time sequence
2. to connect two seperate sets
3. to use 2 names or descriptions of the same set
4. to name or describe a set and one of its subsets
5. the polysyndeton 'and'
Before I answer, what does this mean? "above to the Synagogue" IN THE SKY (2 Thes.2:1) at the Presence of Jesus on a cloud in power and great glory"
Please denote the translation you are using.
I like the KJV1611 Edition:
2 Thess 2:1 " ... our gathering together vnto him, ... "
Note the same 'gather together' is mentioned in Matthew 24:31
Mat 24:31 (KJV1611 Edition):
And hee shall send his Angels with a great sound of a trumpet,
and they shall gather together his Elect from the foure windes,
from one end of heauen to the other.
Ed, I wasn't using a Bible but I didn't remeber that verse saying anything about a Synagogue
That is bcause you don't kow which version of the Bible that Mel Miller was
using. He didn't specify which version. What is translated in English
'gathering' I guess could be translated Synagogue. BUt I know of no
version that does that.
Jesus AND Paul used the same word to describe our "gathering unto Jesus"
but Paul used episunagoge (noun) while Jesus used episunago (verb form). Jesus revealed the process of the "gathering together" (verbs) will take four separate and specific actions before we meet Jesus at the "gathering place at the Synagogue" (noun) ... the very Presence of Jesus.
Matthew and Mark show various parts of the four-part action of the same event "after the great tribulation AND the signs in the sun AND moon AND stars AND the shaking of the powers of the heavens".........
Mark says: "AND then they will see the Son of Man coming (erchomai) in the clouds (like lightning in Matt) with great power and glory". Matthew adds: "AND then shall appear *the sign* of the Son of Man in heaven".
"AND then (in Matthew; not Mark) shall all the tribes of the earth mourn".
The Son of Man appears, in Mark and Matthew, "AND then shall He send His angels AND (Mark adds) He shall gather together His Elect (apestelei AND episunaxei; verbs; third person SINGULAR action of episunago by Jesus alone) from the 4 winds, from the uttermost part of earth to the uttermost part of heaven (singular act by Jesus)". This third of the four-part action occurs before Matthew reveals the part played by Angels.
NOTE: At this point only Jesus has taken part in the four-part action. He has "raised up all believers", both dead and living in Christ (at the 2nd sound of the 7th trumpet), "AND caught them up to heaven" vertically ...
"from the uttermost part of earth to heaven's uttermost part". Mark 13:27; I Thes.4:17. This is a singular action from every place on earth to every place in heaven!!
At this 2nd sound of the Last Trump (Rev.11:15 being the first), Angels have not yet "gathered His elect out of the 4 winds to the gathering-together-place (episunagoges epi; assembly; noun) above unto Jesus" as found in 2 Thess.2:1. Not Mark, but Matthew alone uses the third person PLURAL for the action of the Angels. Only Jesus reveals the Last Trump sounds for the Angels to complete the gathering from all parts of the heavenS. These facts are vital for understanding the four-part action.
The Angels are sent AND the tribes of earth continue to mourn and "beg to escape" (Luke 21:36). The 12 Tribes of Israel AND, IMO, the 12 Tribes of Ishmael, had already seen the Son of Man AND had "begun to mourn at
seeing the Son of Man after coming like lightning" (erchomai; present passive participle). Then Matt.24:31 adds the 4th part played by Angels.
Matthew repeats the "AND shall send the Angels" but omits the "THEN" because Mark reveals that Jesus had already "sent the Angels" after His sign appears. Matthew verifies Rev.1:7 that the Tribes of earth mourn at *The Sign* of the Son of Man AND as He sends the Angels to gather the Elect that He has already gathered from earth to every part of heaven.
"AND He shall send His Angels (3rd person singular to agree with Mark)
with a great sound of a trumpet (Matt.24:31; 3rd sound of Last Trump). AND they shall gather His elect (episunaxousin; 3rd person PLURAL for the first time in Matthew) out of the 4 winds from the extremities (Plural) of the heavenS unto the extremities thereof" (perpendicular; at right angles to the plane of the horizon around the earth)..."unto Jesus". 2 Thes.2:1.
Mark does not mention a trumpet sound because, while he reveals that Jesus sends the angels AND also gathers the elect from earth, the last part of this single event occurs after the sign of the Son of Man appears AND the tribes of earth begin to mourn. Both occur before the trumpet sounds for the Angels to "gather the Elect out of the same four winds unto Jesus at the Synagogue" in the Sky. 2 Thess.2:1.
Jesus gives the only description of the Rapture/Gathering together above
in which we learn the part played by the Angels at the third sounding of the Last Trump. I Cor.15:52. [Rev.11:15; I Thess.4:16; Matt.24:31]. With this understanding comes the UNITY for which Jesus prayed in John 17:21-26 so that "the world might believe that the Father sent the Son".
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :love2:
Re: Ancient Jewish weddings....
This is an interesting read for anyone who is interested to clarify why the catching away of the Bride (Church) to the Father's House will happen before the Great Tribulation, as depicted in ancient Jewish wedding customs.
For some reason, you have overlooked the 144,000 Jewish Firstfruits who will be "redeemed from earth and will follow the Lamb wherever He goes"!
JESUS' FULFILLMENT: MARRIAGE SUPPER
"As the bride and bridegroom celebrated with a joyous wedding supper, so Jesus and His bride, the church will celebrate the marriage. "Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting: Hallelujah! For our Lord God Almighty reigns. Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear. (stands for the righteous acts of the saints). Then the angel said to me, Write: 'Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb'" (Revelation 19:6-9)!
The Lamb's wedding is not announced as "having come" until AFTER the rejoicing in heaven which, in turn, does not occur until AFTER Babylon the
Great has been totally destroyed forever. The rejoicing: Rev.19:1-3; then the wedding is announced as "having come". Rev.19:7.
But at this point the only living Saints in heaven are Enoch, the 144,000 Jewish Firstfruit of the Endtime Harvest and the Two Witnesses who will be taken separately to heaven on the day of the "first resurrection". "All believers will rise up on the last day"; so neither the First Resturrection nor the wedding of the Lamb can take place until the last martyrs have been killed and they stand before God and the Lamb in praise for their salvation. Rev.7:9-14.
The apostles and prophets are called on to rejoice in heaven AFTER the total destructiron of Babylon and AFTER the armies have been gathered to Armageddon and the last Plague has emptied in the air. Rev.16:14-17; Rev.18:20-24. The "wine of God's Cup of anger and wrath" pour out to destroy Babylon the Great and then heaven rejoices ... moments before Christ descends from heaven. The saints learn that the time for the "Lamb's wedding and wedding supper has come" just three verses before heaven opens and Christ descends. Rev.19:7-9.
In your view, you see the Resurrection of Believers taking place before
the "first resurrection" which must include ALL the martyrs. There is no Scripture that indicates Christ is coming TWICE, once FOR and later once again WITH all the saints. "God will bring the souls of those that sleep in Jesus WITH Him" (I Thess.4:13-14; I Thess.3:13) and all the tribulation martyrs are among the saints that "keep the commandments of God and who are asleep in Jesus". They "die in the Lord" and must be included in the Resurrection on the Last Day! Rev.14:12-13.
If this is not the truth, you must explain why the words of Jesus in John 6:38,39,44,54 do not mean what He says! Only Jesus and Martha put the resurrection of the saints on the "last day". Lazarus was saved before the Church began!
The 144,000 Jews "redeemed from earth" will be saved during the great tribulation. They are not even "guests" invited to the Wedding supper. They are "firstfruits unto both God and the Lamb and they will follow the Lamb wherever He may go"! Rev.14:4.
Mel Miller www.lastday.net :applause:
Brother Mel, the 144,000 are not part of the Bride.