end times

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by servant4him, Jun 18, 2003.

  1. servant4him

    servant4him
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    Luke 21:9
    "When you hear of wars and revolutions, do not be frightened. These things must happen first, but the end will not come right away."

    As you know, the bible speaks of the end times, when Jesus will come and save us all. I wish that day would come today, but we do not know when it will come. The end times are near, they always have been.
    Jesus could come at any moment. Any second, minute, hour, day, or week.
    The bible states in the chapter of Matthew what you'll see when the end time are near.

    Matthew 24

    21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again. 22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.
    26"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
    29"Immediately after the distress of those days
    " 'the sun will be darkened,
    and the moon will not give its light;
    the stars will fall from the sky,
    and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'[3]
    30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
    Many things are happening. Rejoice! The hardships of life can end at any minute and we will be taken up into Heaven to live with the Holy Trinity!
     
  2. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    servant4him,

    Yes, Jesus could come at any second.

    Notice in Matthew 24:21 that Jesus did not merely us the term 'tribulation' but 'great tribulation.' The word 'great' signifies something beyond the tribulation that the first century church went through. We sit in a nation of relative peace and tranquility. A most horrible event will take place after Christ come for His church, [I Thess. 4:17] namely, the Great Tribulation. During this 3 ½ period of time the Seal, Vial, Trumpet Judgments plus the plagues will be poured out on the unsaved world. [Revelation chapters 8-14] This Great Tribulation is also recorded in Revelation 7:14. This 'great' tribulation uses the Greek word [megale] meaning large, sore or strong, as the context requires.

    The early church had 'tribulation' and it was awful because some were either imprisoned or killed for the faith. But, the coming Great Tribulation will make the trials of the first couple of centuries seem like 'a cake walk.' This will be an unprecidented time where there will be a one world leader who will manifest himself after the rapture-meaning that Christ will take His church back to Heaven. [I Thess. 4:17] This world leader will be the antichrist and will sit in Jerusalem in the Great Tribulation Temple claiming to be the Lord God. [II Thess. 2:4] The antichrist will not deny the reality of Christ but will claim to be Him.

    Matthew 24:29 at the close of the Great Tribulation the earth will be darkened as also explained in Revelation 8:12.

    We are the most fortunate people on the face of the earth. We believe and trust in Jesus as our only Savior and will not enter this most dark night when God is going to repeatedly and unmercifully judge this lost world during this Great Tribulation. Let's keep trusting in His grace and Divine reality.
     
  3. KenH

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    Matthew 24:21 is referring to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D., not the end of the world. If the verse was talking about the end of the world, there would be no point in stating that the action would not be equaled again in history.
     
  4. Ray Berrian

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    I am not saying that Matthew 24:21 is, as you said, 'the end of the world.'

    The next major things in God's drama of history will be the resurrection of the just & rapture of the church to Heaven, [I Thess. 4:17] the Great Tribulation-of seven years, [Rev. chapters 6-18] the Second Coming [Rev. 19:11-21] the 1,000 year Millennial reign of Christ on the earth, [Rev. 20:2-7] the resurrection of the unjust/unsaved, [Rev. 20:5] and the Great White Throne Judgment. [Rev. 20:11-15] Then will come the end of the world as we know it with the Lord introducing the New Heaven and the New earth. [Rev. 21:1]

    All of the Seal, Vial, Trumpet judgments have not taken place as you and I well know, nor does human history record these catastrophic earthly events. [Rev. chapters 6-18]

    Those who reject the Messianic reign of Christ on the earth like most Roman Catholics and Reformed Baptists and others have been lulled to sleep thinking that we are either in the Great Tribulation or are about to come to the one final judgment of God on both the saved and lost. This leaves these kind of thinkers as either spiritualizing or allegorizing nearly all of the O.T. prophecies and most of the Book of Revelation.

    If after studying Revelation chapters 6-18 and you think we have experienced all of these terrible things, then we have come through or are going through the Great Tribulation. The fact is we have not experienced these events. Do you know anyone who has had to refuse the 'mark of the beast' from the authority of the antichrist, and therefore has been killed for their faith in Jesus? [Revelation 13:16-18] If your answer is no then the Great Tribulation is future. This is the truth that some will not understand until they personally enter in on this future era of Biblical prophecy in world events.
     
  5. KenH

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    I personally think that is appropriate. But then again there are about a zillion different eschatological viewpoints, none of which I am convinced are anywhere near 100% accurate. [​IMG]
     
  6. Carson Weber

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    This leaves these kind of thinkers as either spiritualizing or allegorizing nearly all of the O.T. prophecies and most of the Book of Revelation.

    Reading apocalyptic symbolism as apocalyptic symbolism in no way is "spiritualizing" or "allegorizing" such narrative. It's a method of proper exegesis.

    If I write, "Next week, it's supposed to rain cats and dogs," then the proper interpretation is that it is going to rain really hard next week. In my interpretation, I take the metaphorical symbolism for what it truly means; it's affirming a real event.

    If someone were to come along and say, "Oh, but you're spiritualizing and allegorizing that statement! For it says that cats and dogs will fall from the sky! How dare you!," then you would probably feel like throwing your hands up in the air, despairing in the face of Fundamentalism.
     
  7. Me2

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    This leaves these kind of thinkers as either spiritualizing or allegorizing nearly all of the O.T. prophecies and most of the Book of Revelation.

    I personally think that is appropriate. But then again there are about a zillion different eschatological viewpoints, none of which I am convinced are anywhere near 100% accurate.

    -----

    I agree...

    God states if anyone adds to or takes away from the book of revelation..He will:

    Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
    Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.

    when we attempt to interpret revelation. many do not understand that ANY misinterpretations leads to forcing God to react, (by taking away zoa life from the misinterpreter).?

    I think that many would not hold onto their interpretations of error if they actually understood that God has to act when His children are holding onto error in their doctrines or interpretation.

    so one would be lead to conclude that if any were to state that Jesus is their lord..that their interpretation of revelation would be correct.???

    seeing that with God..
    its all about understanding what he is saying correctly, or not at all..

    so out of the zillions of viewpoints of eschatology.. which ONE is correct?
     
  8. Ray Berrian

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    I am not a fundamentalist but I do know that the Pretribulation view is correct. I will give three reasons just in Revelation chapter thirteen. But first, and I say it respectfully, Roman Catholics need to get out of their mind that their church view has all the correct answers. If their church does not place an imprimatur on their selected books the clientele is not supposed to read them, a kind of 'lock down in your cell' as far as opening eyes to more of His truth.

    KenH, you said you are not sure about your eschatology. Here are reasons why we are not in the Great Tribulation era.

    Number one, the beast/antichrist of Revelation 13:1 never has been wounded [vs. 3a] or heal in all of human history to this point in time. Neither was any antichrist figure in all of human history wounded by a sword. [vs 14e]

    In verse four we see that this coming world leader will have political/military power so fierce that no one will try to go up against him. [vs. 4e]

    The Apostle John speaks of a definite period of time for his rule. 3 ½ years or 'forty two months. After the rapture, meaning the saints being taken into Heaven [I Thess. 4:17] there will be seven years of Great Tribulation on the earth, but this last 3 ½ years is when the antichrist will turn away from his peace initiative, that won the world to his side, and will ruthlessly demand worship and adoration. Beyond being a world ruler this antichrist will blaspheme the name of Christ, His sanctuary above, and the saints who have gone into eternity. [vs.6]

    Just before the Second Coming this beast will make war with believing saints especially in the Jerusalem area of the world. We need to remember that God said in Genesis 3:15 that the evil one would hate the Prodigy, our Savior Who would come from the woman, the virgin mother of Jesus. Satan and his tool of choice, the antichrist hates all saints whether Catholic, non-catholic or Messianic Christian. Simply stated this beast will hate all Christian people. Even after the 1,000 year reign of Christ on the earth, God will allow Satan to once again deceive the nations. [Rev. 20:7] He will deceive the whole world and will focus on 'the beloved city,' of Jerusalem.

    In Revelation 13:8a ---we learn that all of the world will worship this beast/antichrist, not because they want to but because he will place a mark in the forehead or on the hand of the unsaved, insuring their allegiance to him, and their permission to buy and sell goods/ food. [Rev. 13:17] No monster like this has ever been unleashed in our world to this point in human history.

    Nero, was one of the little antichrists over the then known world, [I John 2:18] but this monster will control 'all kindreds, tongues, and all nations.' [13:7]

    Another reason why Revelation thirteen has never happened yet is because the second 'beast' [13:11] is what theologians call the False Prophet who preaches how great this world wide leader really is in the world. Never in the history of the world has there ever been an antichrist coupled with a human False Prophet.

    Does human history record a world leader/antichrist who brought down fire out of Heaven? [Rev. 13:13] Not to my knowledge . . .

    The antichrist will initiate another source that will lend visibility to the antichrist. He will ask for an 'image to be made to the beast/antichrist' [vs. 15] A person might guess that it could be a statue or marble-likeness of himself similar as what we saw in Iraq where Saddam elevated large portraits of himself. God is going to allow Satan to make this bust speak.

    No one, on a world-wide range, has ever seen a man kill all people who do not take this mark in the forehead or hand. This is still another proof that this wicked, brute, figure, the antichrist, is a future person who will torment even the isles of all the seas, including nations of human beings.

    In the first 3 ½ years this peace maker [Rev. 6:2] {a bow with no arrows} will during the last 3 ½ years bring famine and death [Rev. 6:5 e,f] to all those who refuse to offer adoration to his being and statue. [Rev. 13:15]

    Scripture tells us that the beast/antichrist will be a man and not a woman. [13:18]

    In summary, God speaking through the Apostle Paul warn people to study, study, study and then lock down some answers, but to keep your mind open to all ideas. Here were his words. There are always those who are ' . . . ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.' And then he gives an example of two people who resisted His truth and there spiritual backslidding. [II Timothy 3:7-8]
     
  9. thessalonian

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    Ray,

    Perhaps you should open yourself up to some of God's truth, particularly on the book of Revalations. Read Scott Hahn's "The Lamb's Supper". It puts a perspective on the Book of Revalations that you will never get if you limit yourself to the writings of Protestansts. How many Protestant predictions on the BofR have come out only to be found wrong. That guys (can't remember his name) is still on late at night on TBN even though Y2K didn't turn out to be the disaster he had predicted. I even heard Hal Lindsay on the radio about a month ago. You know author of "The Late Great Planet Earth". Sold 35 million copies. That's alot of money for a book that turned out to be false.

    Pre-Trib Rapture? It's a denial of the cross.

    Blessings
     
  10. Ray Berrian

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    thessalonian,

    I may get to read Dr. Hahn's book depending on what I see briefly before buying the text, plus the cost factor.

    I do not make predictions about the time of Jesus return for any of these events but they will come in due time. The Bible says, no one knows the day or the hour of His return. Our concern is to have our hearts right before Him now so we are prepared to see Him in all of His resplendent glory.

    By the way if you know of any people who are in rebellion against Christ, warn them not to take the mark of the beast/antichrist, because all who do worship other than the One true God will be damned in destruction forever, says Jesus.

    Have you seen or heard of the antichrist yet? Have you see the False Prophet yet? Have you seen a man demanding a mark in the forehead or in the hand yet? Have you seen the antichrist sitting in a temple in Jerusalem yet? [II Thessalonians 2:4] Have you see or read in all of human history, a man who demands worship who has placed his picture or statue in a temple in Jerusalem or in the area of Jerusalem? [Rev. 13:14] A denial of food will be the rule of the day for those who refuse his 'mark.' [Rev. 13:17] When you see all of these things plus his wound that heals after being cut by a sword, you will then know you are in the times of the Great Tribulation.

    I don't think anyone really knows who the antichrist will be, but he will be a man [Rev. 13:18c] His number will be 666, as we all know.
     
  11. Me2

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    Mark of the beast..on the forehead or/and hand

    is works of the law/flesh. in thought or deed.

    or simply playing christ through their flesh, instead of availing to the real christ in humility..

    in the ot tabernacle.the priests had to annoint themselves with the blood of the sacrifice.

    same idea here yet the sacrifice is not christ blood. (covering our sins)

    it is our own fleshly power of attempting to follow the law to please God. in thought or deed.

    kinda reminds you of the philacteries that the pharisees either tied onto their hand or wore them tied around their forehead. the box contained pieces of the law...


    666 is the number of man; symbolically.
    imperfection..body, soul and spirit
    777 is the number of perfection or completeness.
    like jesus.777 body, soul (will) and spirit.

    its all explainable symbolically.
    and its not end times for some believers.
    its end times for all believers.

    when the spirit of grace is introduced to those living under the control of the spirit of the flesh. (beginning of wars and rumors of wars.)
    (law against spirit)
     
  12. Ray Berrian

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    thessalonian,


    You said, 'Pre-Trib Rapture? It's a denial of the cross.'

    What do you mean by the above statement. As I read this there is no problem betwen the rapture of the church to Heaven and the fact that Jesus died for our sins.

    My view of the Roman Catholic Church and their confusion about the atonement is that yes you say, you are saved by partaking of the Sacrament, but the church wants to improve on grace, as if that were possible, by having people finish salvation through 'good works' and just in case at the end, to be paraded into Purgatory for the touch up work, before Heaven. First, if faith in Jesus does not accompany the reception of the Eucharist, it has no saving benefit. I John 2:2a says that Christ died for all of our sins and not just the ones when we came into the faith of Christ and were saved. If His plan was and is to remove all sins from Christians, and He does, then human works and Purgatory are totally out of the picture and serve no purpose. John 2:12 says that all of a believer's sins are purged in His blood and will not be held against us ever again. [Roman 8:1] Otherwise, He could not be giving us everlasting life. [John 3:16] Otherwise, salvation then would have become efficacious on the installment plan according to our behavior. In I Corinthians 15:3 you do not read, 'Christ died for some sins', but God did say, 'Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures.'
     
  13. Ray Berrian

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    Me2,

    I always think that the 'phylacteries' were a beautiful concept and reality. This was so the people might have God ever before their eyes as a reminder of the reality of Jehovah Lord.

    It was about the second century that all male Jews were expected to wear at morning prayers, except on sabbaths, and festivals two phylacteries, one on the forehead, called a frontlet, the other on the left arm. Within this small leather case were four Scriptures. Exodus 13:1-10; vs. 11-16; Deuteronomy 6:4-9; 11:13-21] Probably the most important thought was, 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord.'

    I have a non-Christian Jewish acquaintance who has this phylactery in a small box as you enter their front door to their house.
     
  14. Me2

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    Ray,

    I hope you didnt take my usage in the similarities as dis-respectful.

    some take the law as a list of rules that the flesh can follow. while others recognize that the nature of their new spirit HAS the law written into it.

    we rest in our new spirit which contains the law, or laboreously follow an external "version" of it as a requirement in righteousness. problem here, is if we follow an external law..its our flesh making the descision, not our spirit.

    in our modern day. we are all in the battle between our flesh and spirit. we have the same enemies. and we learn the exact same lessons under the teaching of the holy spirit. we are faced with the external law as our flesh fights to gain control instead of humbling ourselves before God and his methods of teaching us. eventually we discover that the original intent of the written law was to distroy the works of our carnal flesh and its power that we think we get from making descisions to control our own spirit and soul.

    unfortunatetly, we ultimately fail following its perfectness and the "law" kills us.

    silly thing about the law..Adam could have asked God for it.. He chose to "take it" instead.
    All knowledge of Good and evil (law) was to be given to us, but like adam, we choose to "take it" instead of simply asking christ for it.

    I see the law in many forms and purposes. but Ill still tear up when I see a jewish person "kissing the law".

    although again..the law can be a two edged sword.
     
  15. thessalonian

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    "You said, 'Pre-Trib Rapture? It's a denial of the cross.'


    What do you mean by the above statement. "

    Jesus said "any man who wished to be my disciple must take up his cross and follow me.". The Cross represents suffering of which there will be much in the tribulation period. It is certainly palatable to people and an easy sell to say, hey, that stuff in the bible about Tribulation, don't worry about it. We're outa here before that happens. They say Yipee, sign me up. Yet the very disciples that Jesus choose himself went through far worse trials than any American Christian has ever had to endure. I would rather not face the tribulation but there is no pre-trib rapture so we will be here.

    "s I read this there is no problem betwen the rapture of the church to Heaven and the fact that Jesus died for our sins."

    I didn't say there was a problem with rapture. 1 Thes 4:17 says we will be caught up to meat him. But the pre-trib stuff is my objection. Your point indicates that the Apostles should have been raptured before their martydom because Jesus died for their sins also.


    "My view of the Roman Catholic Church and their confusion about the atonement is that yes you say, you are saved by partaking of the Sacrament, but the church wants to improve on grace, as if that were possible, by having people finish salvation through 'good works' and just in case at the end, to be paraded into Purgatory for the touch up work, before Heaven."

    Your view is distorted. We are saved at baptism. But salvation requires perseverence. God provides us grace to persevere. He feeds us.
    Grace is not a one time, fill up the tank. It God actively feeding us every day of our lives. Good works do not save but they are like excercise that helps us to persevere till the end. To run the good race as the Apostle Paul put it. Purgatory is not that hard to understand. The Bible says the righteous man sins seven times a day. Revalations says "nothing unclean shall enter". We know there is no sin in heaven, so somethin's gotta give here. Snow covered dung is still dung. It is still unclean and it won't be in heaven.


    " First, if faith in Jesus does not accompany the reception of the Eucharist, it has no saving benefit."

    Amen. For one to partake in the Eucharist, they must be in the state of grace. Seems your theory on Catholicism is suspect from the get go because you clearly don't know what you are talking about with regard to Catholic theology. The Eucharist is food for the journey that God provides. Note in John 6 Jesus starts out with the mana in the desert story. But he says God is going to provide spiritual food for our journey through the desert of life.


    " I John 2:2a says that Christ died for all of our sins and not just the ones when we came into the faith of Christ and were saved. If His plan was and is to remove all sins from Christians, and He does, then human works and Purgatory are totally out of the picture and serve no purpose. "

    That is why Paul says:


    Romans 2:6-8
    who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
    to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
    but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

    There are many more I could use of course. By the way the Catholic Church agrees works do not save. One who is in a state of mortal sin could feed every poor person in the world and would go to hell. Yet one who is in the state of grace and does nothing would be like Noah had he sat back and said "I have faith in you God" yet had not built the ark.

    "John 2:12 says that all of a believer's sins are purged in His blood and will not be held against us ever again. [Roman 8:1]"

    Amen to that. If a man repents that is absolutely true. That does not say that he cannot mortally sin after that and Ez 18:24 says that if he does he is back where he started. Oh I know that is OT. Luke 12 then and the servant that does evil after being right with God.

    " Otherwise, He could not be giving us everlasting life. [John 3:16] Otherwise, salvation then would have become efficacious on the installment plan according to our behavior. In I Corinthians 15:3 you do not read, 'Christ died for some sins', but God did say, 'Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures.'"

    I've given you the list of verses that show that we CAN FALL IN TO SIN. We CAN TURN AWAY FROM HIM OF OUR OWN FREE WILL. What you do with them is in your court.

    Blessings
     
  16. Ray Berrian

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    Me2,

    I did not take your post as disrespectful. To be totally candid with you I did not understand your first post.

    Your explanation of Law and Grace was creme de la creme.

    You said, 'Some take the law as a list of rules that the flesh can follow,while others recognize that the nature of their new spirit HAS the law written into it.'

    I don't too often hand out compliments, but your last phrase that starts out, ' . . . while other recognize . . . was absolutely unsurpassed in your word usage and the depth of your spiritual insight. Thanks for building this into my heart and life. I have always wanted to explain it the way you did, but never conceptualized it the way you did for us.
     
  17. Ray Berrian

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    The Catholic Church defines sin as being either moral or veniel. God does not say the venial sins only need to be confessed to God while the moral ones are worthy of the second death and require a priest or minister's absolution. Sin is sin to the Lord. If we are going to try to struggle to stay in a state of grace we are in a faith works religion which is not the faith. One lie or misrepresentation of the truth about another person must be coved by His blood also. I believe that His atonement is a covering throughout all of our Christian life, otherwise even these lesser sins, by our standard, would send us to Hell.

    My dictionary says about venial sin is 'a sin that is relatively slight or that is committed without full reflection or consent and so according to Thomist theology does not deprive the soul of sanctifying grace.' I will agree with this also, but his theology implies that only the more hideous sins are the ones that the Lord is concerned about. This is wrong. He is concerned about all of our sins; that is why we need Jesus and His atonement. This is why we are saved by Christ alone and not by our human record of overcoming sin or by keeping the Law or even the rules of our particular branch of the church. Jesus saves not the church's humanly officiated ministrations.
     
  18. Ray Berrian

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    I meant to say, 'mortal sins . . .'

    Correction by Ray
     
  19. Ray Berrian

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    "You said, 'Pre-Trib Rapture? It's a denial of the cross.'


    What do you mean by the above statement. "

    Jesus said "any man who wished to be my disciple must take up his cross
    and follow me.". The Cross represents suffering of which there will be much
    in the tribulation period. It is certainly palatable to people and an easy sell to
    say, hey, that stuff in the bible about Tribulation, don't worry about it. We're
    outa here before that happens. They say Yipee, sign me up. Yet the very
    disciples that Jesus choose himself went through far worse trials than any
    American Christian has ever had to endure. I would rather not face the
    tribulation but there is no pre-trib rapture so we will be here.

    I am saying that no sinner comes into the faith and or accepts Christ with the idea of escaping the Great Tribulation. Most sinners have enough trouble giving up their rebellion and sins that keep them from the Lord. Your above ideas a merely froth.

    I didn't say there was a problem with rapture. 1 Thes 4:17 says we will be
    caught up to meat him. But the pre-trib stuff is my objection. Your point
    indicates that the Apostles should have been raptured before their
    martydom because Jesus died for their sins also.

    My point was absolutely not that the apostles should have been raptured before their martyrdom . . . ' There are Christians who die nearly every day in China because of their strong witness to the Gospel. Yes, sometimes we go through severe testings, but the Lord will be with us and them in their hour of trial and despondency.


    "My view of the Roman Catholic Church and their confusion about the
    atonement is that yes you say, you are saved by partaking of the
    Sacrament, but the church wants to improve on grace, as if that were
    possible, by having people finish salvation through 'good works' and just in
    case at the end, to be paraded into Purgatory for the touch up work, before
    Heaven."

    We are saved at baptism.

    A lot of Baptist Christians would not agree with you about baptism saving the soul. Christ and His grace ministering the Spirit to us is Who saves us, not any ministrations of any church.


    But salvation requires perseverence. God provides us grace to persevere. He feeds us.
    Grace is not a one time, fill up the tank. It God actively feeding us every day
    of our lives. Good works do not save but they are like excercise that helps
    us to persevere till the end. To run the good race as the Apostle Paul put it.

    I agree with the above paragraph.


    Purgatory is not that hard to understand.

    Purgatory is not in our Old or New Testaments. So according to the Bible this concept is purloined.

    The Bible says the righteous man sins seven times a day.

    The quote is 'For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again . . . ' [Proverbs 24:16]

    Revalations says "nothing unclean shall enter". We
    know there is no sin in heaven, so somethin's gotta give here.

    Revelation 21:8 is describing as you can read, 'the unbelieving' not Christians who fall into their own sin out of weakness. No Christian enjoys living in sin, unless he has really hardened his own heart.

    Snow covered dung is still dung. It is still unclean and it won't be in heaven.

    I John 1:7 says that ' . . . the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.'


    " First, if faith in Jesus does not accompany the reception of the Eucharist, it
    has no saving benefit."

    Amen. For one to partake in the Eucharist, they must be in the state of
    grace.

    We agree on this, thanks be to God.

    Seems your theory on Catholicism is suspect from the get go
    because you clearly don't know what you are talking about with regard to
    Catholic theology.

    Give me some credit here; I do know more than you wish I did. If I need correct remember I have not lived with a lot of this error that you palate.

    The Eucharist is food for the journey that God provides.
    Note in John 6 Jesus starts out with the mana in the desert story. But he
    says God is going to provide spiritual food for our journey through the
    desert of life.

    Good preaching I agree with the above statements of yours.

    I said, 'I John 2:2a says that Christ died for all of our sins and not just the ones
    when we came into the faith of Christ and were saved. If His plan was and is
    to remove all sins from Christians, and He does, then human works and
    Purgatory are totally out of the picture and serve no purpose. "

    You said, ' That is why Paul says: Romans 2:6-8
    who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
    to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and
    immortality, eternal life;
    but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey
    unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

    I am saying that Paul is contrasting the saved in verse 7 while in 8-9 he is speaking of the unbelievers.

    By the way the Catholic Church agrees works do not save. One who is in a state of mortal sin could feed every poor person in the world and would go to hell. Yet one who is in the state of grace and does nothing would be like Noah had he sat back and said
    "I have faith in you God" yet had not built the ark.

    Hypothetical; because Noah was a righteous man he built the ark and got on board. He knew the fate of the wicked in the near future.

    "John 2:12 says that all of a believer's sins are purged in His blood and will
    not be held against us ever again. [Roman 8:1]"

    Amen to that.

    Again we agree.

    If a man repents that is absolutely true.

    Here you are wrong. A person's relationship to the Lord God is eternal. [John 3:16] If we sin we only break our fellowship meaning our enjoyment of His Presence, until we confess our sin to Him. Documented in I John 1:7.

    That does not say
    that he cannot mortally sin after that and Ez 18:24 says that if he does he is
    back where he started. Oh I know that is OT.

    You are right again. We are living under the age of grace and not Law. [St. John 1:17]

    Luke 12 then and the servant that does evil after being right with God.

    Luke chapter twelve has to do with Christian stewardship not one's eternal security or taking it away from them. They were 'beaten with stripes,' not placed in Purgatory or Hell.

    I said, 'Otherwise, He could not be giving us everlasting life. [John 3:16] If salvation is not eternal then would have become efficacious on the installment plan according to our behavior. In I Corinthians 15:3 you do not read, 'Christ died for some sins', but God did say, 'Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures.'"

    I've given you the list of verses that show that we CAN FALL IN TO SIN.

    Christians can fall into sin, but they cannot fall completely out of His grace. [John 10:27-30 & I John 5:18. Check one of your translations or the Greek text.

    We CAN TURN AWAY FROM HIM OF OUR OWN FREE WILL.

    Yes, you have a free will to turn from Him, but He has the option of chastening you [Hebrews 12:5-8 and even to the point of physical death [I Corinthians 11:30] He can do this because your witness is so tarnished that He will take your life, and later you will stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ [II Cor. 5:10] right after the rapture of the Christian Church, as a drop out Christian and as one who will be saved by 'the skin on the teeth.' [I Cor. 3:15]

    What you do with them is in your court.

    The ball is coming in your direction now, brother.

    Ray Berrian
     
  20. Ray Berrian

    Ray Berrian
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    Too many Christian think that God's plans are for the most part for the church age of the Gentiles. What they forget to remember is that all of the God's pen-persons {writers} were Jews except doctor Luke who was a Gentile and the writer of St. Luke and the Book of Acts. All but two books of our 66 books of the Bible were written by Israelites.

    An so in Matthew 24:14-51 he is speaking to the dwellers of Israel for the most part. Of course, during the Great Tribulation [vs.21] it will affect most of the nations that we call our world. Matthew being in Israel then, speaks to the people of his immediate area when he says in that day, 'Let them who are in Judea flee into the mountains and woe to those mothers who have small babies.' [vs. 19] Notice their observance of the sabbath day which should ring a small bell in our minds that Matthew is speaking to the Israelite nation.

    Most knowledgeable theologians think that when Matthew says 'flee into the mountains' he might be referring to either Petra, a towering rock fortress in the country of Edom, or the encampment of Masada. Masada of course, was where the Israelites fled in 70 A.D. away from the Roman government and oppression of their day. The soldiers laid siege to a band of remaining Jewish Zealots who fortified themselves on this very high plateau. For three years after the Fall of Jerusalem these survivors resisted the Roman legions. After every other Jewish stronghold had fallen to the oppressors, these zealots killed their women and children and then one another. They decided on taking their own lives rather than be tortured or killed by the enemies sword.

    Revelation 12:6 speaks about 'the woman fleeing into the wilderness' and that these Jewish people will be fed there for 1,260 days, or 3 ½ years, which is the last half of the Great Tribulation period.

    Michael the archangel of Revelation 12:7 is the same angel that is the defender of the Israelite people says Daniel in his twelfth chapter. This unpredicted Great Tribulation will experience millions of martyrdoms during this relatively short period of time. Dr. Jack Van Impe in his book, "Prophecy" says, that during this Great Tribulation there are 'twenty-one judgments listed in chapters six through eighteen. {p. 101} These will be Christ's Seal, Vial and Trumpet judgments that have not even yet begun.

    A man named M.J. Agee in his "Revelations 2000" {Your Guide To Biblical Prophecy For the New Millennium} says on page 295 about Revelation 12:14 'her place' that 'Believers in Israel, and especially in Judea, have a special place prepared for them to flee to. It must be Petra, a city Esau or his descendants cut out of rose-red Nubian sandstone in the Wady Musi, southeast of the Dead Sea. It has a narrow two-mile long entrance through the rock that is easily defended. Petra has amazing temples and other buildings carved out of the 200 to 400 foot-high cliffs.'

    This eschatological view is at opposite poles from what Augustine thought would be the rather peaceful building up of the kingdom of God on earth with a one time Judgment for all people sinners and saints together, being evaluated as to eternal destiny. Augustine was led astray by Origen and his school of theology in Alexandria, Egypt, which taught the allegorical method of viewing Scripture rather than comparing one portion of Scripture with another.
     

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