Endtime Apostasy? Or Endtime Revival? Or both?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Gavin, Mar 7, 2003.

  1. Gavin

    Gavin
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    Dear saints,

    Here is a topic worthy of consideration. Will there be an apostasy as we come into the endtime?

    Or will there be a great Revival of the saints in the endtime?

    Will there be both? Perhaps even simultaneously?

    This is hard for us to fathom. Our minds have been "Hellenised" into the Greek logical mindset. We think of "A" or "B". But not A and B together, especially when they seem to be contradictory. We think of one or another but not both.

    Here is a scripturally based article that reconciles the concept of a revival by the true saints right in the time that many we had assumed were Christians are deserting the faith in Jesus and going into apostasy. The saints will rise up as lights of a wedding party moving out across the landscape even in thick and gathering darkness. -Isa.60
    http://endtimepilgrim.org/hosea_revival.htm

    Blessings to all,

    Gavin
     
  2. Grasshopper

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  3. Primitive Baptist

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    Grasshopper,

    I believe that is a sound article. May I also mention that Gill and Spurgeon were Partial-Preterists as far as Matthew 24 is concerned, although they held to the common view that the book of Revelation was written during the reign of Domitian. However, I think some Partial-Preterists are more extreme than others. I am very mild. :D
     
  4. tyndale1946

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    I guess I'm more of the extreme kind of partial preterist then... My field of study has been Eschatology over the years and I strongly feel that date is mistaken... The writing took place in the time of Nero Caesar or at his death June 68 A.D... No others fit the pattern and harmonizes with the book of Revelation... Until someone show me I'm in error with proof otherwise that is my stand... Every other endeavor is a wild goose chase and I've been on plenty!... I'm satisfied my search has ended [​IMG] ... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  5. HankD

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    Malachi 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
    2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
    3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
    4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.

    Romans 11
    24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
    25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
     
  6. Primitive Baptist

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    I'm just wondering what that post has to do with the topic at hand?
     
  7. HankD

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    Dear PB,

    Please click on the URL that Gavin gave in his first post and you will see that it is a messianic type presentation showing that God will restore Israel at His Second Coming.

    So, I supported him with the Scripture from Malachi and Paul's prophecy that Israel will remain partially blinded until the time of the gentiles is fulfilled.


    HankD

    [ March 08, 2003, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: HankD ]
     
  8. Gavin

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    Dear Hank,

    Thanks for coming into the discussion. (BTW that article started from a study I did on the "two days" of Hosea 6:2.) Yes the restoration of Israel is an endtime theme which cannot be tossed away in favour of an up and coming "replacement theology" that says

    "The Jewish nation is finished!
    We are on the scene!
    We are now victorious!
    We are the CHURCH!"

    The rampant nationalism and churchism that wants to dump Israel is very worrying. Will antisemitism spring up in America? Could it happen if trouble comes? The theological basis for this awful possibility is there just waiting to be politicised just as it was for the German church as they went to war in the 1930's. Amil/postmil hasn't changed. The "dump Israel, we are the church!" mindset is nestled there inside the church like a gargoyle built into the roof of the cathedral. Nasty.

    What is so surprising is the power of this new partial preterism. It is now uniting both the old reformed quarters of the church with the new charismatics. Now that makes for strange bedfellows indeed! All this as the nations are continuing to rage. -Ps.2

    I am surprised that on this Baptist Board the only ones who seem to want to take a close look at the endtime themes are these preterists and partial preterists. Where are the premil folk? pre-trib and post-trib? I'd be glad to hear from either premil camp.

    Blessings to you Hank,

    Yours in Him,
    Gavin
    http://endtimepilgrim.org/hosea_revival.htm
     
  9. Tim

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    HankD,

    I think you're equating two different things:

    Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of
    the sword, and shall be led away
    captive into all nations: and
    Jerusalem shall be trodden down of
    the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled

    Rom. 11:25 For I would
    not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye
    should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is
    happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in

    But I don't believe these are the same thing. In Luke, Jesus is speaking of time passing, i.e. the city will be trodden down for a certain period of time. But in Romans, Paul is speaking of the inherent quality of the "olive tree", i.e. that it will be full of Gentiles. There is no implied timetable in Rom. 11, but rather a change of the makeup of the people of God.

    This point relates to Gavin's constant complaint about "replacement theology". Many consider it antisemetic. But it is actually not replacing all Jews with the church. Instead, it's adding believing Gentiles to believing Israel, while cutting off unbelieving Israel. It's a change in the makeup of the people of God--based not upon ethnicity--but upon faith in Christ. God was still faithful to His promises to Israel in saving a remnant--the Jewish "firstfruits" of the church.

    In Christ,

    Tim
     
  10. HankD

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    Hi Bro Tim,

    I respectfully disagree. I believe these two passages point to the time of Israel's wanderings in the earth while the gentiles "trodden down" the Holy city (Jerusalem not the Vatican).

    But that's the great thing about Baptists.
    We can disagree without being disagreeable [​IMG]

    Acts 1:
    6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
    7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

    The seasons have changed, the fig tree has put forth the leaf.

    Blessings to all.
    HankD
     
  11. tyndale1946

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    It is interesting that you mentioned the fig tree Hank... When Jesus saw it it bare no fruit... Then Jesus cursed it... The next time he saw it... It had dried up and withered away!... Great symbolism and a lesson taught here... Brother Glen The Primitive Baptist [​IMG]
     
  12. Tim

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    Glen,

    Good point. But that's the unpopular fig tree scripture.

    In Christ,

    Tim
     
  13. HankD

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    Dear Brother Glen,

    You said...

    True but with God all things are possible like bringing a withered tree back to life or even giving life to dry bones...

    Ezekiel 37
    11 Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
    12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
    13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
    14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

    [​IMG]

    HankD
     
  14. Tim

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    HankD's Quote:"True but with God all things are possible like bringing a withered tree back to life or even giving life to dry bones..."

    But Hank, Jesus's curse on the fig tree was, "let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever."

    All things are possible except Jesus going back on His word.

    In Christ,

    Tim
     
  15. tyndale1946

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    Here is something that a writer commented on in a book I am now reading called Jesus And The Holy City... New Testament Perspective On Jerusalem by P.W.L. Walker

    Jesus curses the fig tree... And after the cursing of the fig tree gives the parable on the vineyard... But sandwiched in between the cursing of the fig tree and the parable of the vineyard... Is Jesus entering the temple and throwing out the money changer... Who have changed his house from a house of prayer to a den of thieves.

    Notice that the next morning as they are passing by the fig tree it is withered away and dried up from the roots... Then follows the parable of the vineyard... It is the leaders of Israel who bear the chief responsibility; it is they who are the tenants of the vineyard(which represent Israel as a whole)and it is they who rob God by preventing God from receiving the fruit he might otherwise have gained from his people... More later... Brother Glen [​IMG]
     
  16. HankD

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    Tim, stop confusing me with facts! [​IMG]

    OK so this fig tree does not represent Israel.
    How's that for eis... oops I mean exegesis.
    Israel restoration is indicated in both the OT such as the dry bones and some of Jesus statements to His disciples and the pharisees.
    Also Romans 11, etc.

    You make an excellent point, I missed the words "for ever". After I thought on it I came up with this.

    What has dried up, never to be restored is the Nation of Israel ruled over by Talmudic Judaism and its teacher/leaders whom Jesus roundly condemned as "blind leaders of the blind" and their doctrine as "the precepts of men".

    Matthew 21
    43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
    44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
    45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
    46 But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.

    Romans 11
    18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
    19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
    20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
    21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
    22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
    23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

    HankD
     
  17. Tim

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    HankD,

    I appreciate your willingness to concede at least part of my point [​IMG] I won't tell Brother Glen if you don't.

    Anyway, you said, "What has dried up, never to be restored is the Nation of Israel ruled over by Talmudic Judaism and its teacher/leaders whom Jesus roundly condemned as "blind leaders of the blind" and their doctrine as "the precepts of men"."

    My question is--what kind of Judaism do we see in Israel today? It seems like the same kind of unbelieving, Talmud-based, pharisaical religion that it was in Jesus' time. So how could modern Israel be the "another" nation that Jesus was referring to? They don't fit the description.

    The nation that DOES fit the description is the one that Peter mentions in 1 Peter 2:9--the HOLY nation, and by the grace of God, it's us!

    As far as Romans 11 goes, I think too many Christians read it through a dispensational filter. Paul's point IMHO is that God has not cast away ALL the Jews while bringing salvation to the Gentiles. God was still faithful to His promises to Israel in saving the believers among them--the faithful remnant. Additionally pointing out that ALL Jews who would be saved MUST be saved by the Deliverer--they could not depend upon their Jewishness to save them. God was in the process of trimming the branches, and the dead ones (no matter how natural they were) would not last through the pruning.

    A believer in the better covenant,

    Tim
     
  18. HankD

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    Yes and that's just it, it was/is spiritually dead. These are the dry bones of Ezekiel's vision which were revived in three stages. What is being seen is the coming together of the dry bones (the Modern Nation of Israel-1947) still dry, still dead.
    Next comes the "sinews and the flesh"..."and the skin"..."but no breath". I don't know what the details of the fulfillment of this event are , perhaps it is fulfilled in that Israel is now an important world power again.
    Then comes the "breath" (Hebrew-Ruach or Spirit). Israel as a nation turns to their Messiah Jesus Christ, they convert and the Kingdom is restored to them.

    Mind you, this is a theory.

    All the details of my eschatology are held very loosely except His Bodily literal Return, that's a ROCK (one you can build your house on [​IMG] ).

    Although I'm not a typical dispensationalist or typical rapturist, yes, I do see Romans 11 from a different point of view as concerning the Nation of Israel rather than individual Jews (although they can be and are being saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ).

    Me 2. [​IMG]

    Peace to you,
    HankD
     
  19. Tim

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    HankD,

    Looks like we have an agreeable disagreement. But I'm glad we're together in the better covenant.

    In Christ,

    Tim
     

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