Enough light for all mankind individually?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by AresMan, Dec 19, 2006.

  1. AresMan

    AresMan
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    Just a few questions to keep your gears spinning:

    1. Is it God's perfect (complete) will that every human being that has ever lived or ever will live goes to heaven?

    2. If it is, is God capable of making this happen?

    3. If so, why does He not?

    4. For every person who ever dies rejecting Christ, is it possible that more light could have been shown by God Himself wherein that person would trust Christ?

    5. If so, and if an omnipotent God willed this with a desire totally in the bounds of His power, why did He not allow/provide this needed light?

    6. Is man's fallen will stronger than God's power to convict, if indeed God "attempts" to convict every soul for the express purpose and desire to bring every soul to heaven?

    7. If man's fallen will is stronger, why did God allow this in the first place, if its effects are not His perfect will?

    8. Since we all agree (except for open theists) that God knows the beginning from the end, do you think God bites His proverbial nails and grieves when an unregenerate soul dies when He knew this would happen and yet supposedly, He was incapable (or refused) to change the situation?
     
  2. Allan

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    Oh brother!
    It is Gods desire that all men come to repentence. (or did scripture lie)
    This is what Non-Cals call His permissive will and make MAN resposible for what he does with the truth God gives him. Cals would call it His Hidden will.

    Yep, but He has decreed that man is responsible for what he does with truth. (accept it or reject it)
    Because He already established what He desired to be. Secondly God isn't looking for robots or puppets but for those who will come to His table or to drink of His water. It is a choice to be made:
    Hbr 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
    Christ says, Yes.
    But you see it isn't about God MAKING them Repent but allowing them to CHOOSE repentence! We find this aspect in Luk 16:
    Jesus gives the perfect illistration here: They have ALL that they NEED to understand and repent because of Gods grace and mercy.
    He did allow this NEEDED light and it was given. A better question you should as is that IF a omnipotent God who is both Soveriegn and Love; why did He allow His creation to fall in the first place or just bring salvation to Adam and Eve? Same answer we will give you...He had a plan, a purpose, for His good pleasure!
    Nope. And No one but an Open Theist would say so. God doesn't 'attempt' (where do you get your understanding of the Non-Cal position from??) to convict the sinner, He DOES convict them and the world for that is the Spirits Ministry here.
    To convict the WORLD of sin, righteousness, and Judgment to come.
    Man is resposible on what he now does with this revealed truth.
    It's not and it isn't. The Calvinist doesn't even know the fulness of Gods will. This is why they had to come up with something to help maintain their theology in light of those difficult passages dealing with choice, It is Called - Gods 'hidden' will. ExampleP God gives man a choice of 2 doors: (Gods will) Door 1 and Door 2 but God will only allow man to open Door 2 (Gods Hidden Will) thus giving the illusion of choice.
    This helps maintain as you can see those pesky passages where man is asked to make a choice concerning God.

    Nothing EVER occurs to God as He knows all things. Yes God is grieved is a sense (but not some wailing blob of Sorrow) when people reject Him (just read the OT - hundreds of examples). BUT ...God does not pity them for it was by their own decision to be judged by God outside of Christ, He does so with a justifiable righteous indignation. Why? Because He gave all they NEEDED and they wanted none of His Love.
     
  3. Amy.G

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    Is it possible that this subject could be discussed without using the word Calvin and various isms?
    I was just wondering because it seems to appear in every discussion about free will or God's revelation to mankind. :saint:
     
  4. Tom Butler

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    To the extent that every person can observe the creation, which suggests a Creator, God has sent some light to all people.

    That light, however, is not enough unless it is accompanied by the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is apparent that not every one has received the light of the gospel.

    That is the reason God calls men and women as missionaries; why he calls preachers; why he commands us all to share the Good News.

    The entire basis of the mission movement is the fact that there are those who haven't heard the gospel.

    The basis of the Great Commission, given by Jesus himself, is that the gospel needs to be carried to places where it has not been preached.

    The basis of Paul's missionary journeys is the Holy Spirit's charge to take the gospel to places who do not have enough light.
     
  5. Allan

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    Exactly! But it is enough light to know enough truth to accept what you know or reject it for all else. It is true that not everyone has recieved the gospel but everyone to some measure of understanding (each person individually) has recieved this truth in Nature. But like Jesus told Nick. in John 3 (paraphrase) How can you understand the spiritual if you wont believe the physical (or what you see and hear). That little bit of light is counter cultural to where ever they are and if they choose to know it (or more of it) God will send unto them the fullness OF that light or truth. That grain of mustard seed truth so to speak. God will not allow that person do die in sin IF they will believe even that little light of truth but WILL send Someone to them (even if He has to translocate them like Philip)
     
    #5 Allan, Dec 20, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 20, 2006
  6. Allan

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    One reason is because THIS thread was drawn up to try to refute the Non-Calvinist view, specifically that of man being responsible with what he does with the truth he has recieved. The OP is stating that man can not decided what to do with truth revealed because God will not reveal truth to any but those He has changed in order to recieve it. This is the reason I stated "Oh Brother!" at the beginning of my post because I knew it was going to be centered on Calvinism and Non-Calvinism views of the salvation process.
     
  7. Tom Butler

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    Allan, I have read and re-read your full post, trying to find something to pick apart. I have to tell you that after an examination of every minute word and phrase,

    I agree with every word.
     
  8. Amy.G

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    Allan, where we you when I was debating this very thing a month or so ago? :laugh: This is exactly what I was trying to say, but you said it much better. I felt like I was :BangHead: ! Does this make me a Cal or non-Cal? I'd never even heard of Calvinism until I came to the BB! :eek:
     
  9. Allan

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    :praying: PRAISE GOD!! I didn't think I was THAT out of my mind :tongue3:

    Then again, my wife tells me different at times. :smilewinkgrin:
     
  10. Allan

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    I'm not a Calvinist, But Tom is one - and we both agree herein
    So I would guess that we are in between Non (-) Calvinst. We are agreeing in the (-) zone. :laugh:
     
  11. Jarthur001

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    That is called dashism. :)
     
  12. reformedbeliever

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    This is where I disagree with many Calvinist. I'm not so sure I agree with the view of some, about all of God's supposed wills.

    I believe in this verse of scriptue it is saying that God desires all sorts of men to come to repentence. Jew and Gentile.

    God takes no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked... I agree. But if it was God's will that none would perish (inclusive) then none would. I believe when the word all is used in this context... it means all the elect.
     
  13. Hanna

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    II Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    It is not that he WILLS that none should perish. If God wills something, that is the way it is going to be....period.

    He is NOT WILLING that any should perish. Meaning He doesn't make that happen.

    He is however longsuffering toward us, that all should COME. Coming is something we have to do.
     
  14. reformedbeliever

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    Hanna, you have already been shown that Peter was writing to the elect. God is not willing that any of the elect perish. Do I have to show you context again?
     
  15. Jarthur001

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    Hello Hanna,

    Have you ever read this verse?

    What do you think this is saying about Egypt?
     
  16. PreachTREE

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    As a dispensationalist, God's ultimate plan is not the redemption of man, but HIS GLORIFICATION.

    PreachTREE
     
  17. PreachTREE

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    Allan, does this sound like common grace by any chance? :BangHead: :thumbs: :wavey:
     
  18. Tom Butler

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    I agree with you. I don't have scripture for it, but I also believe that if someone will follow the light they have, God will give them more light.
     
  19. Allan

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    Not in the sense that you mean common grace as a Calvinist.
    As a Non-Calvinist Grace is Grace and all grace can LEAD one to repentence but will not MAKE one repent as it is their...**cough-choice**. :smilewinkgrin: :laugh:
     
  20. Amy.G

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    Is this it?
    Mark 4:24 Then He said to them, "Take heed what you hear. With the same measure you use, it will be measured to you; and to you who hear, more will be given.
    4:25 For whoever has, to him more will be given; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him."
     

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