Entropy - "again"

Discussion in 'Creation vs. Evolution' started by BobRyan, Jul 12, 2003.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    Lets have another go at the "hard science" facts -vs the blatant mythologies of evolutionism.

    Lets select as "the starting point" a large mass of hot gasses in our local area.

    Lets suppose that evolutionism's (required) "self-organizing principle" is "in magical play" and that it results in a fully functioning complex "solar system" (given enough magic - time) resulting from the hot gas as it cools.

    "our solar system" to be precise.

    Let's "finally admit" that this is "UP". A step UP in organization such that some of the products (Human brain, space shuttle etc) are metrics for "how high is UP" from a hot sample of Gas.

    This "metric" would place "UP" at an almost "infinite distance" from the "mean" - the hot sample of gas.

    Challenge:
    Where is the "corresponding" DOWN from the "mean" of "hot sample of gas"?

    Experiment.

    IF we take a sample of hot gas and let it cool in a test-tube to around -360 Kelvin - DOES a "human brain and space shuttle" pop out the other side of the experiment to balance that level of "DOWN"?

    Some would suspect "not".

    Is there a projected distance of "DOWN" from the MEAN (the hot sample of gas) that is equivalent to the "UP" metric -- human brain and its associated space shuttle?

    Thoughts?

    Bob
     
  2. The Galatian

    The Galatian
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    (Barbarian's response deleted by Barbarian, for possibly excessive humor)

    You've gone over to the Cartoon Theory of Evolution. Everyone here thinks that one is wrong. Can we get back to the real one, now?

    (suggests that evolutionary theory is about complex systems coming from hot gas in a tube.)

    Yep. Cartoon Theory.
     
  3. Helen

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    You know, Galatian, I keep seeing you accusing people of promoting your 'cartoon theory' of evolution, but I never see you add to your posts what the 'real' one is as a point of contrast. If you want people to understand what you are talking about, you really ought to tell them.
     
  4. Peter101

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    &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;IF we take a sample of hot gas and let it cool in a test-tube to around -360 Kelvin - DOES a "human brain and space shuttle" pop out the other side of the experiment to balance that level of "DOWN"?&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;

    Is the above more unreasonable than having a human body being made instantaneously from the dust of the earth? At least evolution has the advantage of a substantial amount of time.
     
  5. UTEOTW

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    Your strawman is wrong right from its first assumption. Molecular clouds are cold. (Oooh, a creationist making an assuption, I thought only evolutionists did that.)

    Do you have any actual science? To be on topic, maybe how a collapsing molecular cloud violates 2LOT.
     
  6. Paul of Eugene

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    Basically, the starting point of this topic is a statement to the affect that the writer doesn't believe it happened the way science says it happened. The fact that the writer got a minor detail wrong here and there is irrelevant. What matters is - the statement is not news. We all knew that already. And there is no substance in the statement other than the bald assertion anyway.
     
  7. BobRyan

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    Bob
    IF we take a sample of hot gas and let it cool in a test-tube to around -360 Kelvin - DOES a "human brain and space shuttle" pop out the other side of the experiment to balance that level of "DOWN"?

    I like your posts Peter.

    The one above is almost in the form of a "confession".

    You do InDEED need that space shuttle and human brain to "pop out the other side of that cooling esxperiment" and the Creation model is that only an infinite God can do that.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. BobRyan

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    This is how the Creationist "knows" they are touching a never with their evolutionist friends. The Evolutionist is trying to "run out of the room".

    Just as we see with the Abiogenesis "don't test that in the lab and then say that the self-organizing principle fails for evolutionisms myths as soon as you can test one".

    Here we have ANOTHER the IRON CLAD testable point because the HOT GASES ARE available in the LAB.

    Each time the theory is subject to a verifiable test - the evolutionist runs out of the room and slams the door.

    What is up with that?

    Now please - just be objective and reasonable - and address the point.

    Surely you understand entropy don't you?

    And surely you "can tell if the human brain and a space shuttle are MORE organization than a hot mass of gas" correct?

    Or do you want to dispute THAT PART of the obvious - simple - objective "test"?

    Lets just move through these easy points and SHOW how your model will work here.

    I know how the SCIENCE will work - but what about evolutionism's mythologies? How will they fare in this "test"?

    Will it be the same way they failed in the abiogenesis "test"?

    Bob
     
  9. BobRyan

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    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    You just took the ONLY leverage you had "away".

    NOW you have to define "DOWN" from a "COLD mass of gas" that is as FAR DOWN as the Human brain and the space shuttle are UP.

    NOW when we go to the LAB instead of COOLING the hot gas - we must simply START with COLD gas and "find a DOWN that is equidistant to the UP of a SPACE shuttle and human brain FROM that COLD gas Mean".

    You have sought to "obfuscate" the point - and only succeeded in further reducing your ability "define the metric for DOWN" that would compensate for your magical "self-organizing" principle of gas masses.

    Bob
     
  10. BobRyan

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    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    That is an "answer"??

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Galation - your post is just too good!

    Thanks.

    Bob
     
  11. The Galatian

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    Yes, that's the answer. You're arguing against a strawman.

    If you'd like to take a bit to learn what the theory of evolution is about, start here:

    http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-intro-to-biology.html

    Yes, if you want to understand what modern evolutionary theory is about, you will have to read it all.

    It's a couple of pages, with appendices. You might not read it anyway, but as long as you're ignorant of what it actually is about, you're swinging in the dark.
     
  12. BobRyan

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    Read carefully and objectively your link amounts to "a confession" when it comes to macroevolution.

    However as embarrassing as that "confession" may be -- it does nothing to address the point of this thread NOR does it really add anything (but more embarrassing holes for evolutionism).

    In an effort to humor you I will offer this one off-topic quote from your link.

    The "confession" above is in two parts.

    A. That "Evolution" is a term used by Evolutionist to MASK two different ideas. The benign fact of descent with modification from a parent (as in Dog breeds) is NOT true evolution in terms of the salient points of the argument give as DISTINCTIVES from Creationism.

    However it serves evolutionists to continually obfuscate the discission with that switch in terminology.

    B. Macro evolution IS NOT the same as microevolution and IS NOT observable.

    Now BACK to our study of Entropy.

    Our evolutionist friends "require" the organizing principle that brings us "from hot gas to space shuttle" while PRESERVING the hard science observation in impirical data SHOWING entropy to be a TESTABLE fact of science.

    So the question remains (the obfuscation attempts of Galation not withstanding) WHAT is the metric for "DOWN" the scale of organization from the MEAN of the gas - that compensates for the equidistant METRIC of UP off of that same MEAN that we have in the form of human brains and space shuttles?

    Still no "answer"?? Or do we need to go back and talk about why microevolution is not macroevolution again?

    Bob
     
  13. The Galatian

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    Well, Bob, it looks like you just don't want to accept what it says, so you did a little selective quoting to make it appear that it said something else. Good creationist thinking, that.

    However, if you do want to get to entropy of a gas...

    Finding the entropy is statistical. If you have event a, with probabilty P, then the entropy is

    H(A) = -k log p(a) H(A) being the entropy of the system. If all states of all elements in the system are the same then the entropy would, of course be 0.0.

    This is the Boltzmann equation, which is useful for things like disorder. Thermodynamic entropy, of course, is merely the amount of heat no longer available to do useful work. I'm pretty sure you want the Boltzmann constant, but if not, let me know.

    I'm kinda interested where you're going to go from here, with regard to thermodynamics. Again, there is no "up" or "down" in thermodynamics, but you can use order and disorder. The first thing you need to do is consider the equation, and decide if all the molecules of gas are evenly distributed through space and have the same energy, is that high order, or high disorder.

    Then we can talk about what Boltzmann's equation means from there.

    Tell us about it. (BTW, did you know Boltzman was a supporter of Darwin? Maybe he knew something um?)
     
  14. BobRyan

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    I am actually going to stay with "the cold cloud" as the "MEAN" for Boltzman and Lord Kelvin.

    I am going to STICK WITH the Isaac on this one

    My point is that YOUR starting point is a large mass of gass in our local area. You have UP defined as a metric measured by the fact of the human brain and the space shuttle on the one hand and you now need a "DOWN" so that total entropy of the system is "zero".

    The sources you gave "needed the SUN" to create an OPEN system on earth. But when we start with the entire gas mass that formed our solar system WE HAVE THE SUN INCLUDED and need "Net Zero".

    It is purely and organization and order problem that even Isaac could "see from a distance".

    So I am still waiting for your answer - where is "down" from a mass of gas such that you have the balance needed for a "net zero"?

    Still waiting.

    What? No answer?

    Bob
     
  15. The Galatian

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    In other words, you have no idea of entropy. It's just a word that sounds impressive to you.

    How do we get such enerby from a cloud? Gravitational collapse. We can see it happening, thanks to the Hubble telescope. Clouds of gas and dust collapse, and out of those clouds, new stars form.

    http://www.windowatch.com/2002/images/laulicht/hubble8_5_6.jpg
     
  16. Paul of Eugene

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    BobRyan . . . "up" and "down" aren't sensible terms to use in this discussion. I choose to use "order" and "disorder" instead.

    Asimov was a brilliant writer and an evolutionist to boot. He did not think at all he was posting an insurmountable problem for evolution when he penned what you quoted.

    The key is that the order can come about when there is a source of energy. If that source of energy is long lasting and constant, with a convenient drain on the energy also, then patterns will emerge in the dissapation of the energy. This is a form of order. That is inevitable. Where conditions permit, the patterns can become more and more complex. They may even become self sustaining and thereby subject to selective evolution.

    That is what happened and you have left that part out in all your scenarios mentioned so far.
     
  17. UTEOTW

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    Laugh all you want... You started out with the wrong premise and you did nothing to get any better as you went.

    Would you mind explaining this one. I have had a little bit of thermodynamics training to get my degree and I do not know what you mean. Details please.

    Which lab have we been able to collapse a molecular cloud sized lump of gas?

    As the cold molecular cloud starts to collapse, there is a tremendous amount of potential energy that is released. In fact, one of the problems a molecular cloud must overcome as it collapses is to shed itself of this extra heat to allow the collapse to continue. Once you get a protostar fromed, it begins to release more heat from gravitational collapse. Eventually the heat and pressure in the center of the protstar are sufficent to ignite fusion. The protostar continues to collapse and increase its rate of fusion until the energy created in its core is sufficient to balance the force of gravity and it stps collapsing. Now there is a huge amount of fusion energy from the star. I have all the energy I need to make humans and brains and space shuttles.

    I am waiting for you to present that lab where we collapsed a molecular cloud. I still feel you were arguing against a strawman. (And one based on a false premise to begin.) In the laboratory of space we can see clouds in every conceivable state of collapse, if you are interested.
     
  18. BobRyan

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    "Nice" but it does not work with the hot gas sitting in our local area of space.

    There is just no way to "get the brain and a space shuttle" to pop out of that gas in a true model of "entropy".

    No amount of "disorder" from the "mean of the gas" can account for the "order" of the human brain and space shuttles popping out the other side.

    Period.

    As for Asimov being "your friend" and being the "friend of evolutionism" - I don't doubt it. He is simply admitting to the obvious in this case - a huge problem for evolutionism.

    Bob
     
  19. BobRyan

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    Energy "created"??? Tell me you "didn't say" Energy "created"!! [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Ok so "energy RELEASED" -- ahh much better my friend.

    However - the problem remains "the same". You have NO "Down", no level of "disorder" to account for EITHER the formation of a solar SYSTEM or the self-organizing principle for creating a human brain, or the self organizing principle to created the simplest little single cell - .

    There is no "DOWN" from your "mean" (lots o cold gas) from to which you can descend and thus get "net zero" entropy. Obviously.

    Bob
     
  20. UTEOTW

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    Have you never heard of Einstein? You can convert a small amount of mass into a very large amount of energy. I would tend towards calling it "creating" energy rather than "releasing" energy because I tend to think of "released" energy as having been stored in some form, say chemical energy or potential energy. In fusion (and fission for that matter) you actually create energy from mass. To be specific for small stars, like our sun: ( http://fusedweb.pppl.gov/CPEP/Chart_Pages/2.TwoFusionReactions.html )

     

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