Eph 1:5

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Salamander, Jul 5, 2005.

  1. Salamander

    Salamander
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    Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

    Does this verse not read that those adopted are to be rather busy about fulfilling the Great Commision in leading others to Christ to also be adopted?

    Especially since all, except Jesus Christ, who is God, need to be adopted into God's family?

    It seems any objection to that statement would also deny scriputral evidences that would comply and also confirm to that understanding and correct division of Ephesians 1:5.

    Of course there are those who argue "predestinated" as being something that God did before ever creating man, but then there would be no reason to save men from their sins since the entire fault then would be upon the Creator!! NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Oh! The dangers of not rightly dividing the Word of Truth!!! :D
     
  2. johnp.

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    Hello Salamander nice to meet you.
    I see you are not a Calvinist. :cool: I thought that predestined was different from destined. If man were alive then predestined should read destined shouldn't it? What does predestine mean?

    john.
     
  3. Wes Outwest

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    Salamander,
    Paul is explaining to the Ephesians in verses 3-12 about the Apostles who were selected before the world was made to be Apostles of Christ. Read it in its context:
    First, were the Ephesians selected before the foundation of the world to be adopted brothers of Jesus Christ? If so, where is it found in the scriptures? And, If yes, why didn't Jesus go to them personally? You see Jesus never traveled more than 100 miles from his home in Nazareth. Jesus never once mentioned the Ephesians except in his prayer in John 17 where he includes them among "those who by the teaching of the apostles will believe in Jesus". You would think that Jesus, the son of God, would have mentioned those who were to be his adopted brethren and if the Ephesians were among them they would be mentioned. However, we find no specific mention of them in the Gospels where the majority of the text attributed to be the words of Jesus are found.

    Rightly dividing the word of Truth does not include dissecting ever syllable of every word. We communicate in thoughts, not in individual words. You miss "the who" by not looking at the whole context. Paul does not even mention the Ephesians until verse 13 where he says "Now you to, in him have heard the message of the truth and gospel of YOUR salvation..." So in verses 3-12 Paul is not speaking of Ephesians.

    To whom did the Christ reveal the mystery of his purpose? It was not the Ephesians because Jesus, the Christ did not go to the Ephesians...Period! The apostles went to the Ephesians.

    Who do the scriptures tell us are, "the people who would put their hopes in Christ before he came? Who declared,
    There were among the Jews those whose hopes were in the Christ before the Christ was revealed to them. No Ephesian had such hope for no Ephesian believed as the Jews believed that there was such a thing. So Paul is not speaking to the Ephesians or any gentile peoples in verses 3-12 of Ephesians.

    Who were the ones who were able to demonstrate the spiritual blessings from heaven, such as healing the sick and lame. It was not a common practise among the Ephesians to demonstrate such powers, and scriptures tell us that the Apostles in the power of the spirit cast out demons, healed the lame and sick.

    So Ephesians 1:3-12 is Paul speaking of the Apostles. The apostles teach us that once we are trained up in spiritual things then we are to tell our friends and neighbors of the richness of our own salvation. We are to tweak their interest and encourage them to come to the Christ through hearing the word of God, just as we did.
     
  4. Monergist

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    Eisegetically speaking...

    However I see no imperative in this verse, so exegetically (rightly dividing) there is no need to insert one.
     
  5. Salamander

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    I see you are not a Calvinist. :cool: I thought that predestined was different from destined. If man were alive then predestined should read destined shouldn't it? What does predestine mean?

    john.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Ah! Yes! "Predestination"? Hmmm? Maybe that condition before one was "in him"? Not.

    One isn't predestined as a dead man.

    Predestination can ONLY apply to living persons headed for a certain goal.

    The Calvinist is right, but only to the degree that a dead man can do nothing. Since all were dead in tresspasses and sins, and Paul IS writing to "SAINTS", then he is only speaking to living persons "IN HIM", that being the key/ "IN HIM".

    One was never in Him and dead.

    One is to be busy in obedience to the command found in Matt 28.

    Rightly dividing the Word shows us that the Ephesians were having certain difficulties in what their purpose was supposed to be.

    Paul under inspiration worte them consoling them and admonishing them to get busy, laying out the doctrinal basis for salvation and to contend against Judaisers, along with those who felt if one wasn't a child of Abraham, namedly the Jews.

    If one would only re-read the passage and stop taking things out of chronological order of the sanctification of the believer.

    Ephesians 2 is in perfect harmony with chapter one in all it's context, thus the question that confronts the Calvinist in his doctrine: "How can one be "in Him" and still be dead?"

    "In HIM" is L I F E !! ;)
     
  6. Salamander

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    First, were the Ephesians selected before the foundation of the world to be adopted brothers of Jesus Christ? If so, where is it found in the scriptures? And, If yes, why didn't Jesus go to them personally? You see Jesus never traveled more than 100 miles from his home in Nazareth. Jesus never once mentioned the Ephesians except in his prayer in John 17 where he includes them among "those who by the teaching of the apostles will believe in Jesus". You would think that Jesus, the son of God, would have mentioned those who were to be his adopted brethren and if the Ephesians were among them they would be mentioned. However, we find no specific mention of them in the Gospels where the majority of the text attributed to be the words of Jesus are found.

    Rightly dividing the word of Truth does not include dissecting ever syllable of every word. We communicate in thoughts, not in individual words. You miss "the who" by not looking at the whole context. Paul does not even mention the Ephesians until verse 13 where he says "Now you to, in him have heard the message of the truth and gospel of YOUR salvation..." So in verses 3-12 Paul is not speaking of Ephesians.

    To whom did the Christ reveal the mystery of his purpose? It was not the Ephesians because Jesus, the Christ did not go to the Ephesians...Period! The apostles went to the Ephesians.

    Who do the scriptures tell us are, "the people who would put their hopes in Christ before he came? Who declared,
    There were among the Jews those whose hopes were in the Christ before the Christ was revealed to them. No Ephesian had such hope for no Ephesian believed as the Jews believed that there was such a thing. So Paul is not speaking to the Ephesians or any gentile peoples in verses 3-12 of Ephesians.

    Who were the ones who were able to demonstrate the spiritual blessings from heaven, such as healing the sick and lame. It was not a common practise among the Ephesians to demonstrate such powers, and scriptures tell us that the Apostles in the power of the spirit cast out demons, healed the lame and sick.

    So Ephesians 1:3-12 is Paul speaking of the Apostles. The apostles teach us that once we are trained up in spiritual things then we are to tell our friends and neighbors of the richness of our own salvation. We are to tweak their interest and encourage them to come to the Christ through hearing the word of God, just as we did.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Not, that idealology would then disqualify all the Apostles, for they were sinners just as all men are sinners.

    I can see where one could surmise that ideal, but Paul is addressing all believers, not building themselves up above their appointed places.

    The entire Book hinges on the phrase "in Him".

    Not like other instances of "in Him" suggest the same, but are parables given by Christ, of which some build doctrinal basis and are not rightly dividng the Word.

    Paul is speaking expressly to those he's addressed/ Saints. Thus "in Him" carries the weight of being saved and none are saved until being "in Him", and they are ALIVE.
     
  7. Wes Outwest

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    Then what do you do with verse 13?

    You are not "rightly" dividing the word of truth, only dividing it!
     
  8. johnp.

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    Hello Salamander.
    Hmmm. :cool:
    And why not?
    Not? In Him we were predestined to be is.
    One is predestined before the creation of the world before death began it's work.
    Then all men are predestined.
    "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
    I was chosen in Christ before the creation of the world. I became in Him before the creation of the world as a certainty. Romans 4:17 As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations." He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed--the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were. :cool:
    We are the lost sheep, the ones chosen before the creation of the world, Jesus our Good Shepherd came to save us. He is called Jesus because He will save his people from their sins. Matt 1:21. When Adam fell he took those chosen with him but we have always been in Him. GE 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."
    God determined that all should sin so He bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. Rom 11:32.
    One is to be busy with His own business and all the commands found in scripture.
    I don't know ask Luke. Acts 17:28 `For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, `We are his offspring.'
    He thinks all mankind, even the reprobate, is in God. :cool:

    john.
     
  9. johnp.

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    Hello Salamander.
    A pretty strange thing to say is it not? Can dead men have degrees in what they do? I think a redefinition of 'dead' is long overdue. :cool: Mind you the dead I've seen have not had much difference about them as far as I could tell. Might be one was deader than another but none of them did much.

    john.
     
  10. whetstone

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    Imagine that! ;) Dictionary.com seems to think that is the definition of "predestined" as well!

    Let's think about the word: Pre (meaning beforehand) destination (the ultimate place a person or thing ends up in). The literal meaning of the word is - determining the destination of a thing or person beforehand! This small demographic of folks that believe predestination means predestination...who are they?
     
  11. Wes Outwest

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    Predestination does not have to mean before the journey started, it may also mean, "while getting to a destination", "enroute", "before arriving at" a destination.

    You literalists really are comical!
     
  12. 4His_glory

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    Since the NT was written orginally in Koine Greek, lets take a look at the word used for "predestined" in Rm 8:29.

    Here is what AT Robertson says:

    He foreordained (prowrisen). First aorist active indicative of proorizw, late verb to appoint beforehand as in #Ac 4:28; 1Co 2:7. Another compound with pro- (for eternity).

    As you can see this has nothing to do with the defenition you gave Wes.
     
  13. Wes Outwest

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    The question, is Robertson correct? Is Robertson the worlds most correct translator? Was he present when the word was used in its context?

    What do the rest of the worlds linguists have to say?
     
  14. 4His_glory

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    All of the past and present available NT scholars I have available to me say more or less the same thing Wes. That is how the word was used by the Greeks for many years. It can't be disputed.

    In fact why don't you find a respected NT Greek scholar that is of a differnt persuasion.
     
  15. whetstone

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    "Beware the skeptic who is skeptical of everything but his own skepticism." Norman Geisler- an Arminian
     
  16. Wes Outwest

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    "Beware the skeptic who is skeptical of everything but his own skepticism." Norman Geisler- an Arminian </font>[/QUOTE]I'm not skeptical of the truth, only questioning those who claim to know the truth!
     
  17. johnp.

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    Hello Wes.
    Don't bother with that lot Wes mate they're all wrong. :cool:

    Predestine is an English word and it means predestine. The reason why anyone would ask what it means for is as obvious as the meaning of the word itself. You want it to mean not predestine. :cool:

    john.
     
  18. Wes Outwest

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    Advertising is "predestine"! Ya fall for it and ya buy the product.

    But, not all fall for it, nor do they buy the product.

    Are those who don't still predestined?

    You bet! Just a different destiny!
     
  19. whetstone

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    man cannot predesine himself. that isn't predestination at all. it's just acts of the will.

    the very term predestination by definition means an act of prior destination, and no man can say where he'll be or what he'll be doing in the future. only God can. Only God qualifies as one who possibly COULD predestine.
     
  20. Salamander

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    So by that premise, sinner fell out of Jesus and then, because of "predestination" (as you define it), only they are allowed to experience grace unto salvation and everyone else is created to go to hell? NO!!! That would make the LORD of ALL MERCY a tyrant. NOT!!
     

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