Eph. 1: Does it support Calvinism?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Skandelon, Jun 28, 2006.

  1. Skandelon

    Skandelon
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    This is carring over from the other thread where I posted this...

    Suppose there are two football coaches living there in your hometown, Coach Calvin and Coach Arminian. Coach Calvin is in a league where he coaches a team he has individually selected. Coach Arminian is in a league where he coaches a team who has individually chose to voluntarily join his team. Coach Calvin predetermined who would be on his team, while Coach Arminian allowed his team to join voluntarily. However, one thing they both had in common is that prior to the teams being formed both coaches had predetermined to conform their team members into conditioned football players.

    Calvinists insist this passage along with Eph. 1 where predestination is also mentioned must mean that God is like "Coach Calvin" but all the passage tells us is what the coach has predetermined for his team, it says nothing about his predetermining who would and would not be on that team.

    In regard to Eph. 1 we are told that believers are predestined to be adopted as sons, but we are never told certain individuals are predestined to believe. Being adopted is something we are still waiting on to be completed and something which all believers have been predestined to.
     
  2. Jarthur001

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    I'm lazy..i just reposted.

    Eph chapter 1

    1Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

    2Grace be to you, and peace,from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

    3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

    NOTE.......We are Blessed...with spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ

    4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

    NOTE.......We are Blessed...for He (God)has chosen us (believers) in him (Christ)
    ((((WHEN?)))>>>>before the foundation of the world<<<<((((WHEN?)))

    5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

    NOTE.......We are Blessed...for He has predestinated us unto the adoption of children ...according to the good pleasure of his will

    6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

    NOTE.......We are Blessed...for we are accepted

    7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

    NOTE.......We are Blessed....for we are redeemed ....according to HIS grace
    NOTE.......We are Blessed....for we are forgiven ....according to HIS grace


    8Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;

    NOTE.......We are Blessed....with God knowing wisdom

    9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

    NOTE.......We are Blessed....for we now know His will...according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself

    10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

    11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

    NOTE.......We are Blessed....with an inheritance

    12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

    13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

    NOTE.......We are Blessed....for we are SEALED



    ******************

    now the easy part..going by this passage...who choose who?

    when did the choosing take place?

    ******************
    I see you started romans 8-11 too. I have church tonight. I will address those chapters later tonight on in the morning.


    In Christ...James
     
    #2 Jarthur001, Jun 28, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 28, 2006
  3. J. Jump

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    Short answer...no.
     
  4. Brother Bob

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    First we have to find out what Calvinism is. A remark was made that it is the Gospel and then another poster said that He did not agree with all of Calvin's doctrine. Now, does he only believe part of the Gospel or could it be that its not the Gospel. Also this same poster affirmed that he agreed with the one who said it was the Gospel. What is Calvinism, is it the TULIP or is it the Institutes.
    Those that say they are Calvinist but say they do not agree with Calvin's doctrine would be guilty of heresy if Calvin was alive and the very ones who are defending Calvinism would be in danger of being burned at the Stake. Now would that be something but I guess according to them they would be defending the Gospel.
    The Bible teaches me that the Gospel is the power of God unto Salvation, unto the Jew first and also unto the Greek. I take the power of God to be much more than a dead theologian. What you think, is that too much of an ad hominem. Don’t you think that ad hominem is necessary at times according to what kind of opposer you are facing. If the opposer is following a movement instead of the Scripture then I think you need to point out these facts. Now I suppose it could be called a ad hominem but who really cares when you don’t believe what the opposer is putting out.
    I am not trying to highjack your tread but I think that this is the first question that should be answered before we would know if it affects or supports Calvinism. This question is not harsh or mean. I am asking because several Calvinist say they don't believe all of the Institutes or theology of Calvin. :wavey:
     
    #4 Brother Bob, Jun 28, 2006
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  5. Skandelon

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  6. Brother Bob

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    Good answers. :)
     
  7. canadyjd

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    If I understand you correctly, predestination is a general predestination of any who will believe, instead of a specific predestination of certain people to believe. Is that what you are saying?

    peace to you:praise:
     
  8. 2BHizown

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    Truly, from the first verse of Genesis to the last verse of Revelation the scripture thoroughly explain and support the doctrines of grace though some cannot see, or refuse to see!
     
  9. BD17

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  10. Salamander

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    The key to Ephesians 1:4 is that we are chosenIN HIMto be holy and without blame, and until IN HIM we are not chosen. Due to the facts that we are to blame for our tresspasses and sins and DEAD and unholy we MUST OBEY the GOSPEL to be CONFORMED[SIZE=2][COLOR=black] into the image of [B][SIZE=7][COLOR=darkred]CHRIST![/COLOR][/SIZE][/B][/COLOR][/SIZE]
    to believe anything else is borderline heresy.
    :praise: :Fish: :praise:
     
  11. Jarthur001

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    Chill out dude. :)

    heresy...:) yes lets burn those old calvinist at the stakes!!! Burn them Bibles with them.
     
  12. Salamander

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    Surely you jest?

    If I was any chillier, I'd be frozen.

    If you have a problem with making the Word of God emphatically clear, then you have a problem with the Word of God, which is obvious as you suggest to burn your brethren and the Bible.:mad:

    :praise: :Fish: :praise:
     
  13. Blammo

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    Where would you get an idea like that? Oh yeah, from John Calvin.
     
  14. Jarthur001

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    Hello lets try this again and try to say cool...ok?

    THE TEXT..
    YOU SAID....
    Notice how you took one word from one verse and place it in another verse. :)

    The verse reads as is....

    4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

    the choosing is US if you leave the verse as is....placed IN HIM...and done by HE(meaning God)....and done before the foundation of the world

    As it turns out there is no need to twist and change the words around.


    In Christ...James
     
    #14 Jarthur001, Jun 28, 2006
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  15. Jarthur001

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    That is what you do when you do not believe those mean old calvinist that make you NOT twist Gods word. You had a good thing going tell they showed up didn't you? You had a word pulled from here...and a verse pulled from here. "Now read the passage you say." :)

    come on...you can smile at yourself...can't ya? :)

    You call them "to believe anything else is borderline heresy"

    what next?...is it... its a heresy!!!
    then its RECANT....RECANT
    then its...burn those man.


    I have a idea. lets stick to NO name calling. Try to keep cool.
     
  16. Jarthur001

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    yes...John Calvin did this too. Very good. BTW...he was wrong as well.

    :)
     
  17. Blammo

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    And you still insist on being called a "Calvinist". :laugh: Is this idolatry or what?
     
  18. Jarthur001

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    Have you ever at any time in YOU LIFE read the book of Ecclesiastes?

    Or...i bet you pulled it out of your Bible so you would not have to read it.

    did you?

    is Ecclesiastes even in your Bible?
     
    #18 Jarthur001, Jun 28, 2006
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  19. Blammo

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    Yes, Ecclesiastes is in my Bible. I have read it more than a few times. What's your point? Sorry I picked on [...removal of attack on another poster's faith]. Oh master of the ad-hominem.
     
    #19 Blammo, Jun 28, 2006
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  20. Brother Bob

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    Vengeance is mind saith the Lord.:laugh:

    2 Peter, chapter 2
    1: But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
    2: And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
    3: And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.


    One poster said this was talking about Duet. 32: 6": Do ye thus requite the LORD, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee?

    But this cannot be true for Peter was talking about in the time he was on the earth and those in Duet that were bought was by God and they were Israel. Now the false teachers and false prophets of Peter’s time were not Israel. I doubt if anyone would dare say so but I might get fooled.

    Now if it is true the the Lord bought even the false prophets and false teachers then it would fit with the Scripture:

    Hebrews, chapter 2

    "9": But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
    If this is true that Jesus died for all (and that is they must believe to receive it) then the doctrine of He only died for the "elect" is false.:laugh: :laugh:
     
    #20 Brother Bob, Jun 28, 2006
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