This is carring over from the other thread where I posted this... Suppose there are two football coaches living there in your hometown, Coach Calvin and Coach Arminian. Coach Calvin is in a league where he coaches a team he has individually selected. Coach Arminian is in a league where he coaches a team who has individually chose to voluntarily join his team. Coach Calvin predetermined who would be on his team, while Coach Arminian allowed his team to join voluntarily. However, one thing they both had in common is that prior to the teams being formed both coaches had predetermined to conform their team members into conditioned football players. Calvinists insist this passage along with Eph. 1 where predestination is also mentioned must mean that God is like "Coach Calvin" but all the passage tells us is what the coach has predetermined for his team, it says nothing about his predetermining who would and would not be on that team. In regard to Eph. 1 we are told that believers are predestined to be adopted as sons, but we are never told certain individuals are predestined to believe. Being adopted is something we are still waiting on to be completed and something which all believers have been predestined to.