Eph. 2:8-9 parallel with Titus 3:5 on good works

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by The Biblicist, Jun 18, 2012.

  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
    10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them
    .

    Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

    1. The Subjects addressed - Saved persons "ye saved" "saved us"
    2. The kind of salvation - regeneration/quicking
    a. Eph. 1:1,5 "saved" is in apposition to "quickened"
    b. Tit. 3:5 "the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost"
    3. The kind of works after quckening - "UNTO good works" "works of righteousness" - works produced by God's grace through us

    In Ephesians 2:10 these "good works" occur AFTER quickening thus demanding they are works produced in and through us by the Holy Spirit.

    In Titus 3:5 Paul repudiates that such "works of righteousness" or works produced in and through us by the Holy Spirit attribute to our salvation. Instead he says we are saved "by" HIS WORK OF "mercy" (as in Ephes. 2:10a) or "the washing of regenreation, and renewing by the Holy Ghost" called "His workmanship created in Christ Jesus" in Eph. 2:10 and that we are "justfiied by His grace" - Tit. 3:6.

    Here is a flat out repudiation that works produced by grace in and through us ("GOOD works" "works of RIGHTEOUSNESS") play any role in having been "saved" or "justified."

    Baptism and the Lord's Supper are WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS!
     
    #1 The Biblicist, Jun 18, 2012
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  2. Zenas

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    "washing of regeneration" = baptism
     
  3. The Biblicist

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    Regeneration is an INTERNAL act defined as "quickened" or to be made spiritual alive those formerly spiritually dead (Eph. 2:1,5,) and a CREATIVE act by God (Eph. 2:10).

    Whereas baptism is an EXTERNAL WORK OF RIGHTEOUSNESS that is being denied in Titus 3:5. Baptism is a WORK OF MAN because it is ADMINISTERED by man to man whereas regeneration is "HIS WORKmanship" and a work of CREATION and no man can do that work.
     
  4. The Biblicist

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    In Addition, Paul repudiates sacramentalism in Romans 4:11 where he denies that the parallel Old Testament circumcision had any relationship in conveying the grace of justification as Abraham was not justified "IN" circucmsion and thus we are not justfiied "IN" baptism but Abraham was justifed "in uncircumcision" and therefore we are justified in unbaptism.

    Jesus instructed Nicodemus he had to be born again or he could not ENTER or SEE the kingdom of God and he said this BEFORE the cross and BEFORE Pentecost and he told the theif on the cross BEFORE Pentecost that he would be with him "TODAY" in paradise WITHOUT BAPTISM. However he could not ENTER or SEE the kingdom of God apart from new birth - hence he obtained new birth in connection with faith WITHOUT baptism.

    Why? Because Peter explicitly taught that "remission of sins" were obtained through faith in his name BEFORE the cross (Acts 10:43) and therefore not through or by ordinances and Peter taught that AFTER the cross baptism was merely a "FIGURE" not the the substance of remission of sins (1 Pet. 3:21) thus his pre-cross view was consistent with his post-cross view just as Paul's precross veiw illustrated by Abraham WITHOUT ORDINANCES was consistent with his post-cross view (Eph. 2:8-10; Tit. 3:5).

    The theological significance of a "figure" or "type" is in the truth it is designed to express. Baptism is designed to express the truth of the gospel. Hence, to pervert the type is to pervert the truth of the gospel it is designed to express and that is why sprinkling and pouring pervert the gospel of Jesus Christ as much as preaching works of righteousness as the gospel is "another gospel."

    All who "believe" in baptism to obtain literal remission of sins are not Christians but pagans as they have replaced Jesus Christ as the object of their faith for remission of sin with a "shadow" void of substance which can never remit sins (Heb. 10:1-4).
     
    #4 The Biblicist, Jun 18, 2012
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  5. The Biblicist

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    Roman Catholicism did to baptism what Judaism did to circumcision:

    Acts 15:1 ¶ And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

    Rome and many of its Protestant daughters do the same thing with baptism that Judaism did to circucumcision. They claim one cannot be saved apart from baptism just as Judaism said one cannot be saved apart from circumcision.

    Circucmision was a "sign and seal" and Rome believes that baptism is a "sign" and "seal" EQUALLY as circumcision was in the Old Testament.

    However, Paul denies that the grace of justification by faith is communicated "IN CIRCUMCISION" and therefore this "sign" and "seal" are Post-Pictorial of regeneration just as baptism is POST-pictorial of regeneration.

    The langauge of redemption is attached to circumcision and other salvation TYPES in the Old Testament BECAUSE they are salvation TYPES ("a shadow" - Heb. 10:1) but the "sign" and "seals" of salvation do not communicate the substance of salvation or are they essential when the substance of salvation is communicated by God to man (Rom. 4:11).

    They are "WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS" which do not save - "NOT by works of righeousness which WE HAVE DONE but according to His mercy He saved us"

    Replace the words "works of righteousness" with "circumcision" or "baptism" or "the Lord's Supper" or "church membership" or anything else "WE HAVE DONE" as these are all the things "WE HAVE DONE" which can rightly be called "works of righteousness" because no works of the flesh can be rightly called "works of righteousness" or "good works."
     
    #5 The Biblicist, Jun 18, 2012
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  6. Moriah

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    People misunderstand Paul to their destruction.

    Sin is never okay, trying not to sin is not a sin, as many hear try to teach.
    Trying not to sin while searching for God to save us through Jesus is not something that disqualifies us, as many here try to condemn others by preaching their false understanding of no works.

    Keeping God’s commands is what counts, the only thing that counts from the beginning of man, and it the only thing that counts ever.

    To teach man has fallen from grace because he tries to obey God is unstable reasoning.
    Faith without deeds is dead; it is never the alive kind of faith. It is not the saving kind of faith. It is dead.

    In the law of the Old Testament, before Jesus shed his blood, the people of God had to perform many rituals just to worship God. Some of the works they were to do were to be circumcised, to observe special days and years, there were eating and drinking rules, various external ceremonial washings, gift offerings, and sin offerings, just to worship God. Those were requirements just to belong to God.

    God did not like it when people could keep that part of the law, the being clean through the law and still not be right in the heart. People could sin and not be sorry for their sins, and then give a sin offering. What did that do? That a person’s heart could be full of sin and hate towards God yet obey the works of the law and still be called a child of God.

    When Jesus came, God gave to all the chance to be called children of God, not through the works of the law, like circumcision, but through faith in Jesus Christ, through faith in God through His Son, His Son who shed his blood that make all who come to Him clean, not by blood of rams, lambs, and goats. When a person wants to be God’s child now, all he has to do is believe. That does not mean a person must come to Jesus still wanting to sin! That is nonsense. Why would a person even come to God if they wanted to keep living life in sin without Him? In fact, that is what the Bible says keeps people from God, the fact that they do not want to stop sinning.

    The Pharisees and teachers of the law, and the Jews who would not come to God through Jesus, they did not want to give up the working part. The Bible tells us why unbelievers do not come to God. There are many explanations, all about being stubborn, and deceived by sin.

    A person must understand that they do not want to sin, to be sorry for their sins; they must want to be cleansed of their sins just by believing. Faith comes from hearing, from being taught, from being convinced and persuaded. However there are people here and all over the world who misunderstand Paul, they believe in what their denominations taught them, that people are mysteriously and blindly instilled with saving grace, that even to think about wanting to be saved is impossible, and then disqualifies them for being saved, that it makes them a heretic, a rejecter of the truth. What nonsense.

    I wanted to post this before I continue with explanation of Eph. 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5 on good works
     
  7. The Biblicist

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    You are completely misunderstanding my post and attempting to derail it.

    I am not denying "good works" in the life of the Chrisitan in this post nor am I dealing with it in that perspective.

    I am denying that "saved" - past tense completed action was inclusive of "good works". That regeneration and justification are inclusive of "good works."

    Good works are inclusive of progressive sanctification not regeneration/justification.

    If you are going to deal with MY POST then stick to the topic and don't attempt to derail it. Deal with the evidence I have given instead of trying to create a new subject, new topic on progressive sanctification.

    You cannot deal with the contextual evidence and so you ignore it and change the subject and spout out pure empty hot air.
     
    #7 The Biblicist, Jun 18, 2012
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  8. The Biblicist

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    Let me simplify this discussion to one analogy that the Lord Jesus provided:

    Mt. 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

    Mt 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
    Mt 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

    This analogy is a simple lesson on cause versus effect. The cause of fruit is the tree in this analogy. If the tree is corrupt then what it produces will also be corrupt. If the tree is good then what it produces will be good.

    Hence, everything originate with the condition of the tree whether it is by nature good or corrupt.

    Regeneration by God is "renewing" the nature of man in the image of God or "true holiness and righteouness" and that is why we are not "saved" or "justified" by "works of righteousenss which WE HAVE DONE" because what we do cannot change the nature of the tree. Only the creative work of God can change our nature from corrupt to good and so Paul says:

    "For we are HIS WORKmanship CREATED in Christ Jesus UNTO good works"

    1. His work in us precedes our "good works."

    2. Regeneration is a "renewing" in righteousness our INTERNAL nature before we can do "works of righteousness."

    This simple analogy by Christ should even be simple enough for Moriah to understnad.

    Mt 23:26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
     
  9. Moriah

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    I am not doing what you accuse me of doing. I explained the truth about “works.” That is what your thread is concerning.
    I also said I would be back later to talk about it more, in particular what Paul says in Ephesians 2 and Titus 3.
     
  10. The Biblicist

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    You explained nothing! You simply perverted God's Word, perverted the Biblical doctrine of regeneration which both texts are explicitly dealing with.

    Do you really believe that you by your "good works" can help God REGENERATE yourself????

    Paul defines it as a CREATIVE work by God - can your good works create?

    Paul defines it as an INTERNAL quickening by God - can your good works raise the spiritually dead?

    Paul defines it as an INTERNAL renewing by God - can your good works change your own heart?

    WHEN YOU RETURN DEAL WITH THE EVIDENCE I HAVE PRESENTED instead of ignoring it and changing the subject to something else! That is called derailing a thread and it is against the forum rules.
     
  11. Yeshua1

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    the Lord has predestined us to walk in those good works prepared beforehand, in order to bring glory yo his name...

    As you have pointed out here...

    the Bible NEVER says good works save us, are part of the actual salvation process, but they they FOLLOW our salvation!

    By product/fruit as evidence of our new lives in christ!
     
  12. The Biblicist

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    Moriah doesn't even understand the simple gospel much less progressive sanctification.
     
  13. Moriah

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    I understand I hurt your feelings by saying you did not understand something; however, do you have to go off now and constantly attack me?
    Debate more, attack less.
     
  14. The Biblicist

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    Look whose talking!!!!! You have yet to respond with any kind of substance one single post that I have made in this thread!

    You ignore my posts, ignore the particular individualized evidences that support my posts! You respond in GENERALITIES and change the subject but cannot deal argument for argument!!

    Stop this chattering and deal with the evidences I have presented or go elsewhere!
     
  15. Moriah

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    You see, you have made another post with attacks of false accusations. Quote me what I say, then reply with your explanation and the scripture. Just stop with all the hateful ranting.
    Debate the correct way and get a hold of yourself.
     
  16. The Biblicist

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    You are attemting to make YOUR POST the issue of this OP when it is not! It is a radical departure from the OP.

    I am the one who defined the OP not you! You have yet to respond substantively to any of the many Biblical evidences I have presented in this OP.

    Instead you want to chatter about nothing and change the subject BECAUSE YOU ARE INCOMPETENT to deal with the evidence I have placed before you.

    If you think I am wrong by this charge then PROVE IT by giving substantive textual based responses to the evidences I have placed before you!
     
  17. Moriah

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    Relax. What I said does have to do with the OP, and I said I will be back on later to talk more about it specifically Ephesians 2 and Titus 3.
    I have to go, debate with you later.
     
  18. The Biblicist

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    Don't come back to continue your first post! Deal with the evidences I gave in the OP or go some place else!
     
  19. The Biblicist

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    I am resposting the original OP to get us back on track. We are talking about "works of righteousness which we have done" in contrast to regeneration which is the subject of both Epheisans 2:10 and Titus 3:5.
     
  20. Yeshua1

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    pretty clear here. paulinre theology 101

    justified/saved by god thru His grace PERIOD, ansd that based upon the Cross, received at moment faith placed in jesus...

    Good works will be produced as a direct result of that already being accomplished, NOT part or cause of it, salvation!
     

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