Eph 2: Does it ABOLISH what Rom 3:31 Establishes?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, May 13, 2006.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    The argument has been put forward several times recently - that in Eph 2 Paul claims that Christ "abolished" God's Ten Commandments - God's LAW.

    The SAME Law that Paul AFFIRMS in Rom 3:31 as being "established and NOT Abolished" by our "faith".

    This contradictory view of scripture is the exact result predicted for those using eisegesis to "insert" the whims of man-made-tradition "into the text" of scripture rather than allowing "detail" and "context" to speak clearly.

    Everyone knows what Rom 3:31 says - so what about Eph 2? Is it really a case of Paul contradicting himself?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  2. BobRyan

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    The specific problem of the Gentiles - Even as lost, evil, wicked mankind they have the issue that the lost Jews are closer to God by Covenant, worship, Bible and Truth - than are the Gentiles.

    The Jews are described as those who are "near" but are still wicked and in need of salvation - and the Gentiles as those who are
    "far" and still in need of salvation.

    The work of Christ was to bring all men back to God - including those far away - thus abolishing the hostility between lost man and God
    AND abolishing the hostility between the two groups - those in the one True Religion - the Hebrew Nation Church, and those in the Pagan religions.

    We see above that BOTH solutions are mentioned - bringing them NEAR to God and ALSO drawing the two groups of people into ONE body of Christ. No longer TWO divided groups – Jews vs Gentiles!.

    How is this done? By the Justification and forgiveness and New Creation that eliminates our being "children of wrath BY NATURE". By
    FIRST solving the problem of the hostility between God and lost humanity. Hostility caused by the fact that God's Law shows God hating evil/wickedness
    and reveals that man IS evil and wicked.

    Christ abolishes the HOSTILITY in the LAW - but does not void/annul/abolish His Law that declares Him to hate evil and that Calls man to Love God Deut 6:5 and Love
    his fellow man - Lev 19:18. a.He pays the debt that the Law demands (preserving the LAW while removing/abolishing the hostility it requires) and
    b. TRANSFORMS the human that is BY NATURE a child of WRATH - into a child of God. One who LOVES his fellow man and loves God.

    Here again we see the TWO groups “BOTH reconciled into on body TO God THROUGH the Cross” the TWO groups are NOT “God vs Man” but Jew vs Gentile! God is not “ONE man with us” rather Jews and Gentiles are now ONE that is reconciled TO GOD! So the commands/ordinances are those that SEPARTE Jews from Gentiles by Law. For example “the Court of the Gentiles” in the temple.

    The result is that BOTH those who were far (Gentiles) AND those who Were Near have been given peace and have been reconciled to each other – they are “now one”.

    The TWO groups have the ONE solution - access to God. And the TWO groups are then merged into ONE - by the New Birth
    creating the NEW Heart, giving LOVE for each other and Love for God.

    Faith then - ESTABLISHES the LAW of God rather than abolishing it. Romans 3:31
    The faithful are then those who live and act as those who are to be judged by that perfect Law of God. James 2.

     
  3. BobRyan

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    1. God's Law declares the standard of God's righteousness - it shows/proves that man is evil - wicked and that Godis against evil
    --. Transgression of God's law results in hostile toward God and God's Wrath comes upon the wicked.
    -- God's Law defines what sin is -
    -- God's Law defines our need of salvation - It shows us to be under God's wrath because of wicked acts, evil natures - rebellion against God.


    2. Man in his sinful state is under the wrath of God and is also hateful/evil toward his fellow man.
    -- God's Law declares that we are under the sentence of death - Romans 6
    -- God's law condemns all men - even in NT times - pointing us to our need of salvation.
    -- Man - without God - has hatred toward his fellow citizen and toward aliens of other nations and towards God.

    3. So it is no wonder that evil man seeks to abolish that perfect holy just Word of God - His Law that declares God's hostility against evil and wickedness.

    4. God's Word declares that the Gospel - when rightly accepted and understood - IN Christ
    "establishes God's Law" rather than abolishing it. Rom 3:31
    calls God's people to live as those who will be judgec by it James 2
    Is to be considered "Holy Just and Good" by God's People - Romans 7
    Has Deut 6:5 and Lev 19:18 as its two many foundation stones EVEN in Pre-Cross ages - known by Jew and all NT Christians.

    5. Ignoring that NT perspective of Godl's Law - If we simply skim Eph 2 looking for any sentence or word that will help us abolish God's law - we immediately
    find Eph 2:15 and hope to show that it speaks of God's law commanding hostility between peoples, that God's law causes Gentile to hate Jew and vice versa.

    If we care only a very little for exegesis and cling instead to man made tradition we will ignore the context and simply lift a few words out to get to our objective - abolish the law that defines us as evil - but
    there is another option - we could choose light, exegesis, harmony with God's Word.
     
  4. BobRyan

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    Here we see "pretending" at its best. SMM argues that we should not LET God argue so strongly FOR the Ten Commandments that HE SPOKE personnally as HIS Word - HIS Law!!

    SMM argues that IF we let Him do that - "where will it all stop"?!!

    Good point SMM. How much CAN we let God "get away with"???!!

    Or maybe we should READ it in God's Word and then "pretend" that those who PAY ATTention to what God says "are themselves just making up what we are READING in SCRIPTURE". That way we can "blame them" instead of having to admit that "This is GOD writing no man" in Exodus 20.

    But if we are "allowed" to SEE just how strong God makes HIS CASE FOR the COMMANDMENTS of GOD in the NT -- then "lets read on".

    http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3919/2.html#000029

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  5. Brother Bob

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    2 Kings, chapter 17

    "33": They feared the LORD, and served their own gods, after the manner of the nations whom they carried away from thence.

    "34": Unto this day they do after the former manners: they fear not the LORD, neither do they after their statutes, or after their ordinances, or after the law and commandment which the LORD commanded the children of Jacob, whom he named Israel;

    "35": With whom the LORD had made a covenant, and charged them saying, Ye shall not fear other gods, nor bow yourselves to them, nor serve them, nor sacrifice to them:

    "36": But the LORD, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt with great power and a stretched out arm, him shall ye fear, and him shall ye worship, and to him shall ye do sacrifice.

    "37": And the statutes, and the ordinances, and the law, and the commandment, which he wrote for you, ye shall observe to do for evermore; and ye shall not fear other gods.

    "38": And the covenant that I have made with you ye shall not forget; neither shall ye fear other gods.

    "39": But the LORD your God ye shall fear; and he shall deliver you out of the hand of all your enemies.

    "40": Howbeit they did not hearken, but they did after their former manner.

    "41": So these nations feared the LORD, and served their graven images, both their children, and their children's children: as did their fathers, so do they unto this

    ORDINANCES, is how they worshiped God the exact steps that were laid out for to make their burnt offerings, their wearing apparell, not able to come into camp until their beard grew out, put the woman up with a blood issue until she was clean again, circumcision, High Preist making the offering, no one allowed behind second veil except High Preist, etc. As you can see by the foregoing Scriptures, Ordinances, Statues and The Law were three separate things contained in the Law Covenant.

    He abolished the sacrificial offerings, circumsion, washing of the pots and pans, how Israel had to live to honor God, His ordinances and that is what He abolished, not the Law of the Commandments for He protected them all the way to the promised land and if someone touched them who was not allowed they died. He made a special way for them to be carried into the promised land by the preists in the ark.
    That is what I have always believed about it Bob
    I don't think He ever abolished the Ten Commandments.


    [ May 13, 2006, 02:00 AM: Message edited by: Brother Bob ]
     
  6. BobRyan

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    D.L Moody tends to agree that Eph 2 is NOT abolishing the Ten Commandment LAw of God!!

    http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3901.html#000001

    [/QB][/QUOTE]
     
  7. Brother Bob

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    Well, I never knew Moody believed that. I have always believed it. Everytime it looks like the Law has been annuled or did away with just look closely and it will be talking about circumcision, sacrificial or ordinances. In my report I speak about always looking for what law it is speaking about. Once again me and Moody agrees. I am going to have to read his writings.
     
  8. Jarthur001

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    Christ "abolished" the law. Yes.....BUT...there is more to it then that.

    He did abolish the law in Justification. We no longer have to "work" for our salvation. As a matter of fact, we never did. The Law was only in place to show us this. Christ said we needed to be more MORE righteous then the Pharisees. The Pharisees kept the law to a T. None were better at it then them. What did he mean to be more Righteous then these "holy guys"? Righteousness can never come by OUR works. Not by us keeping the law. Our righteousness will not justifiy us. Gods grace does this. Its His WORK on the cross.

    yet..the law remains. Christ "abolished" the law in its work of Justification yet not in separation. We are still to live holy. We are to honor God and seek to do His will.

    Commandments of God are more then just rules. Commandments are WHO GOD IS. If God is truth and He is Truth ...not just true.... then all commandments declear to us who HE is.

    WE now follow Christ and out of love, seek His will..as we do His commandments.


    In Christ..James
     
  9. gekko

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    no - the pharisees - as Jesus pointed out - were making their own laws... they were not righteous at all - if they were - then Jesus would not address them in any issue - the pharisee's were "eisegeting" if you may...
     
  10. Claudia_T

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    Jesus already clearly explained what He meant by the fact that we need to be even MORE RIGHTEOUS than the Pharisees.

    He said, You have heard thou shalt not kill... well I am telling you, dont even be angry against your brother.

    Being angry is the start of murder.. Hating is the start of killing.

    Dont even "think" evil thoughts against someone.

    Dont even "think" of lusting ater some woman and thus committing adultery in your heart...


    Thats exactly what Jesus said and we need to stop trying to read things into what He said that arent there.

    If people keep doing this they are going to find themselves way off the mark, eventually.

    Jesus didnt lessen the obligations of the Law, Jesus MAGNIFIED the Law... some Christians seem to think that when Jesus said Love God and Love your neighbor that He somehow lessened the obligations of the Law but this couldnt be further from the truth.

    He magnified the law, because now we see the light, we see how Jesus Himself lived and now we are even MORE responsible for how we act. We cant claim ignorance ... we have now SEEN the living out of the Law in the very life of Christ.


    Now read this in light of what I just said:

    1Jn:2:7: Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.

    1Jn:2:8: Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.

    They were the same commandments from the start:

    "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord: and thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." Deuteronomy 6:4,5.

    "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." Leviticus 19:18.

    But now we have seen them acted out in living color, in the life of Jesus... which puts us under MORE OBLIGATION... not less. Thus our righteounsess needs to exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees (who in reality werent really righteous at all, only outwardly)

    Claudia
     
  11. Jarthur001

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    Yes well....as we look at the text below the idea is not to explaned the Law, but show that breaking the law starts before the action. Sin is not just the even or act of a lie/murder what have you, it is pride that makes us lie..or hating wanting to hurt..planning to kill..and the act of murder. Its the whole path away from God.


    *********************

    Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil.

    18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished.

    19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    20 For I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven.

    21 Ye have heard that it was said to them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

    22 but I say unto you, that every one who is angry with his brother shall be in danger of the judgment; and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of the hell of fire.

    23 If therefore thou art offering thy gift at the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath aught against thee,

    24 leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way, first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

    25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, while thou art with him in the way; lest haply the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

    26 Verily I say unto thee, thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou have paid the last farthing.

    27 Ye have heard that it was said, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

    28 but I say unto you, that every one that looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

    ***********

    In Christ...James
     
  12. Claudia_T

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    James,

    Yes thats true! Repeated thoughts make habits and repeated habits make character.

    Thoughts in the mind is where it all begins.

    If you just outwardly refrain from "sinning" you are still sinning.

    Like when Jesus said to the Pharisees that the truth would make them free... then they said they werent in bondage to any man... but Jesus replied that if they sin they are slaves of sin and in bondage to sin.

    Jesus knew they were plotting to kill Him and thats why He then said that they were of their father the devil

    and so outwardly they boasted of keeping the law and being "children of Abraham" but inwardly they were "thinking" of murder- which to God is just as bad as doing the act itself. He said if they were the children of Abraham they'd be doing the works of Abraham. So the thinking of sin and the doing of the works of sin are the same.
     
  13. BobRyan

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    I have to admit - he makes a good case.
     
  14. BobRyan

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    #1. The pagans of Christ's day were every bit as bad and as unninformed as the pagans of Abraham's day.

    #2. IF you are agreeing that the OT saints were NOT saved by Works - that why do you feel the need to claim "the LAW of God is abolished" when Paul is so busy "AGREEING WITH IT" in Romans 7 and when Paul says violation of it is slavery-to-sin - it is "being lost" in Romans 6 to the point that it is only those people of faith that "ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31.

    Why are you arguing so hard against these NT truths if you actually AGREE that the OT WAS NOT a time where LAW was being used by God as THE GOSPEL but rather to SHOW us the SIN that we SEE it CONTINUING to SHOW us in Gal 3??

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  15. Jarthur001

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    #1. The pagans of Christ's day were every bit as bad and as unninformed as the pagans of Abraham's day.

    #2. IF you are agreeing that the OT saints were NOT saved by Works - that why do you feel the need to claim "the LAW of God is abolished" when Paul is so busy "AGREEING WITH IT" in Romans 7 and when Paul says violation of it is slavery-to-sin - it is "being lost" in Romans 6 to the point that it is only those people of faith that "ESTABLISH the LAW" Rom 3:31.

    Why are you arguing so hard against these NT truths if you actually AGREE that the OT WAS NOT a time where LAW was being used by God as THE GOSPEL but rather to SHOW us the SIN that we SEE it CONTINUING to SHOW us in Gal 3??

    In Christ,

    Bob
    </font>[/QUOTE]Hello Bob,

    You said..
    If you read my post i'm not saying the law was abolished in all areas. Does good works save us? No.

    For by GRACE are you saved..

    So yes in this one area the law was, but this does not mean we do away with the Law. Grace abrogates the Law in justification. I'm not fighting with Paul, i'm agreeing with him. But some want to pass this to ALL areas. The Law still lives. It still has a use. It is not to be used in salvation. ...for works does not help us here.

    You said..
    Well...speaking of Abraham...how was he saved? with works or grace?

    ****************

    Romans 4

    1What, then, shall we say Abraham our father, to have found, according to flesh?

    2for if Abraham by works was declared righteous, he hath to boast -- but not before god;

    3for what doth the writing say? `And Abraham did believe God, and it was reckoned to him -- to righteousness;'

    4and to him who is working, the reward is not reckoned of grace, but of debt;

    5and to him who is not working, and is believing upon Him who is declaring righteous the impious, his faith is reckoned -- to righteousness:

    6even as David also doth speak of the happiness of the man to whom God doth reckon righteousness apart from works:

    7`Happy they whose lawless acts were forgiven, and whose sins were covered;

    8happy the man to whom the Lord may not reckon sin.'

    9[Is] this happiness, then, upon the circumcision, or also upon the uncircumcision -- for we say that the faith was reckoned to Abraham -- to righteousness?

    *****************

    Yet Abraham did keep the Law. Not for righteousness, but because The Law is who God is. The Law speaks of the very nature of God. Therefore, he kept the Law to bring God glory. YET...and (((this is KEY)))....The law is not made to "bind" us. Its made to bring glory to God.

    Case in point. I aside a day. My day is Sunday. Today this is not done by most, for they see this Law as fullfilled. They go on to say, we no longer NEED to set aside a DAY. I agree. We do not have to do this. I also agree that the Law in this case was fullfilled in the person of Christ.

    Yet...I still set aside a day. I do it for Christ is my rest. Am I so busy that I can not rest from my work and worship God?. Now..its not a Law..i do it to bring glory to God. Its not binding..and it should never be binding. In other words...If i have a fat tire on the way to church..I WILL FIX IT. The sin comes from the heart. My goal is NOT to work...but if life calls me to work...i work. If my water line breaks...it is not my goal to work..but I'm not that stupid to just let the water run. I'll stop the water..and if its a simple fix..i'll fix it. This would break the LAW of the OT..but being that it is not a LAW it is not a sin. Yet i do not roof my house on Sunday..i do not work in my yard on sunday. If the lawn needs mowed and has for 2 weeks...and this is the 1st day it has not rained in 3 weeks...i'm not mowing the lawn on sunday. Sorry...the lawn is such a little thing..and my town may think I'm crazy...but the lawn can wait. The Lawn needs to be mowed yes...but God has His place in my life too. I set aside a day for Him. He knows i need to mow. I'm not giving up my day of worship to do the lawn.

    Why do it? Again..it is to bring glory to God. Does it make me better then does who do not set aside a day? IN NO WAY. I'm not better. I'm only a sinner saved by grace.

    I have spent alot of time on this subject on this post. Now there are more to the Law then setting aside a day. The Law is to be used in ALL cases to bring glory to God. You may not set aside a day. (not you Bob..i know you do) I'm not looking down on others that do not. I agree the LAW part of this is fullfilled. I still do it for other reasons.


    In Christ...James
     

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