Ephesians 5:27

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by percho, May 29, 2012.

  1. percho

    percho
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    That he might present it (her) to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it (she) should be holy and without blemish.

    Is the church presently, without spot or wrinkle, holy and without blemish?

    When will she be presented as above and why at that time, will she be as above? What all will have taken place?

    Being the sentence begins with the conjunction, "that," what about the preceding verse or two is relative to the church at the moment spoken of in verse 27 being as she is at that moment in time? That is, "a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

    One commentator had this to say, James Coffman, "The absolute perfection of the church is prophesied here; but the manner of achieving this is left out of sight."-----Is it?

    Another, Barnes, "(2.) The passage here shows us what the church will yet be. There will be a period in its history when there shall not be any imperfection; when there shall be neither spot, nor wrinkle, nor any such thing. In heaven all will be pure. On earth we are preparing for that world of purity; and it cannot be denied that here there is much that is imperfect and impure. But in that future world, where the church shall be presented to Christ, clothed in the robes of salvation, there shall not be one unholy member, one deceiver or hypocrite, one covetous or avaricious man, one that shall pain the hearts of the friends of purity by an unholy life. And in all the millions that shall be gathered there out of every land, and people, and tongue, and age, there shall be no envy malice, backbiting, pride, vanity, worldliness; there shall be no annoying and vexing conflict in the heart with evil passions, "nor any such thing." How different from the church as it is now; and how we should pant for that blessed world! ------Just when are those robes put on?
     
  2. Herald

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    The entirety of the Church has yet to be called in. It's kind of a "now and not yet" reality.
     
  3. freeatlast

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    I would suggest that the answer is at the marriage supper of the Lamb is when the church will be presented to Him, "holy wihtout blame," but even now she is being covered by the blood.
     
  4. comitatus1

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    No.
    (Rev 21:2 [ISV])
    I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared like a bride adorned for her husband.

    Chris
     
  5. agedman

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    25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her
    26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,
    27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.​

    The presentation "without spot or wrinkle" is the work of BOTH justification and sanctification. The salvation of the believer needs no further work but is complete in Christ.

    That is why in verse 26 it states "make her holy."

    How - "cleansing her by the washing with water through the word."

    How were the OT priests made "holy" (think holy and sanctified as one in the same word). They first were washed then anointed.
    Was the washing in itself making them holy? NO
    Was the anointing in itself making them holy? NO

    It took both justification (washing) and sanctification (anointing) for the priest(s) to present themselves as "holy" unto God.

    Do no neglect to remember that, although the priests were "clothed in righteousness," they were still full of sin. This is a type of the present state of the believer - clothed and completely justified and sanctified yet sinners. The believer is not "of this world," yet still "in this world."

    Any true believer wrestles against the sin of the old natural man, and there is not a true believer who does not daily come to terms with their own unworthiness and worthlessness.

    But, the claim of holy - "be ye holy" - is laid across the path of the believer as a measuring tape. Sanctification (holy) is placed against the believer to bring the believer into ever closer compliance to the Word and the work (walk) that is Christlike. Not ever having attained, but working to attain that which God proclaims upon the believer - holy.

    So, when in glory, Christ will present the church - justified and sanctified - without spot (justified) and without wrinkle (sanctified) for it is already accomplished in salvation.
     
  6. Iconoclast

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    I think we can think of it this way.
    Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

    11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still

    When we are saved The Spirit works in us progressively as we grow in grace.We gather up "treasurein heaven'.
    When we leave our body we are rewarded based on those portions of the word we faithfully obeyed as God worked in and through us. How faithful we were to our calling.
     
    #6 Iconoclast, May 30, 2012
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  7. agedman

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    You quote the Scriptures, but then speak of progressiveness of the Spirit working.

    That is reverse. The Spirit doesn't work in us in a progressive manner. WE respond to the work of the Holiness the Spirit presents in a progressive manner.

    It is not progress that the Spirit makes, but that we make.

    There is no progression into holiness; holiness is not partial but complete or non-existent. One is either holy, or not holy. It is holiness that is already implanted and complete that compels the believer to conform and strive to attain; which all true believers know that they will never attain perfection while in the flesh.

    The verse you posted refers to and can only refer to the future state of both the unregenerate and the regenerate. By text alone, and by context there can be no other application.
     
  8. percho

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    Isn't that the primary reason the following was stated?

    Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

    Now let me ask again. When will we be without spot or blemish?
     
    #8 percho, May 31, 2012
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  9. agedman

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    Romans nine shows that following the law of righteousness that comes from the law is not effective in actually attaining a "without spot or wrinkle" perfection - righteousness.

    Paul writes in Phillipeans 3:
    "10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
    11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
    12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
    13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
    14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. "​

    It is important to see that ultimately the believer will continue to "press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God" until their last breath, for although they may "mortify the flesh" they remain unrighteous in the members of the body while they draw breath in this living.

    Then the final estate of without spot or wrinkle is found when the earthy flesh is put off, and the new creation is revealed already clothed in justification and sanctification - for although we do not have a bodily form yet given for the new creation, the believer is still a new creation clothed in both justification and sanctification.

    John said in 1 John 3:
    "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
    3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifies himself, even as he is pure."​

    Here is shown both the final estate and the current struggle that the currently engages all true believers.

    Although already having the new creation, as it resides in the earthy flesh, the new body has not appeared but remains promised to all believers to cloth the new nature in glory.

    It is the final estate ("it does not appear what we shall be...") in which all believers are presented without spot or wrinkle.
     
  10. percho

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    Here is my understanding of how we become without spot or wrinkle to be presented to Him.



    Jesus the Son of God who knew no sin did God make to be sin for us or as Isaiah puts it, All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 53:6 Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; and washed us from our sins in his own blood.

    Here we are our sins have been washed away in the blood of Jesus the Christ yet his soul is in Hades and his flesh lying in the tomb subject to corruption, dead, separated from his Father who had begotten him. How are we going to, be saved? Jesus Christ is dead, whence comes our salvation? 1 Cor 15:16-18 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
    How are we going to, be saved?
    Titus 3:5 through washing of regeneration and renewing of Spirit Holy. Acts 2:32,33 This Jesus hath God raised up, Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. Acts 2:33 last part he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

    That was the faith and grace by which salvation was wrought for us and which enabled us to receive the Holy Spirit of promise, sanctifying. (setting us apart) unto salvation.

    God laid our sin on Jesus and his blood washed us clean and regeneration by the Spirit Holy washed him clean. This is pictured by the water baptism of Jesus. Washing of water by the word.

    Matt. 3:15 Then he suffered him. (and gave himself for her, died) 16 And having been baptized, Jesus went up immediately from the water, (regeneration) and lo, opened to him were the heavens, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him, (renewing of Spirit Holy)
    Luke 12:50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!
    Matt. 20:22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?

    I think we have all agreed the presentation of her to Him is at the coming of Him, the Lord. And up until that moment, the coming, she is not without spot, wrinkle or blemish.

    as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it (her); That he might sanctify and cleanse it (her) with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it (her) to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

    Matt.20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but [it shall be given to them] for whom it is prepared of my Father.
    Matt. 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me in the regeneration, when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    Will she then be as Eph. 5:27 states?
     
    #10 percho, Jun 1, 2012
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  11. OldRegular

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    The Southern Baptist Faith and Message [Section VI] adopted by the Southern Baptist Convention in Atlanta, Georgia on June 14, 2000 correctly states:

    The New Testament also speaks of the church as the Body of Christ which includes all the redeemed of all ages, believers from every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation.

    This Body includes those believers who have already died and are in the presence of God and those believers who still live.

    The Church, the Bride, will be presented to Jesus Christ after the Second Coming and the resurrection of the body. This is shown metaphorically in Revelation 21:2 as noted in the post by comitatus1.

    Redemption is complete in the sense that in the mind of God the Saint is already Glorified [Romans 8:28-30]. However, the physical body must die as the Apostle Paul discusses in 1 Corinthians 15:42ff and changed into a spiritual, an incorruptable body at the general resurrection.

    I believe that this Church [without spot or wrinkle, holy and without blemish] will dwell in the New Heavens and New Earth throughout eternity in the presence of the Triune God as described in Revelation 21, 22!

    Until that time the Church on earth, believers from every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation, must endure whatever God allows to come our way and remain ever faithful until He takes each of us home there to await the resurrection.
     
  12. percho

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    A little off my OP but not really. Let me ask.

    Are those in bold presently in the presence of God, triune I assume, is some concept other than the concept in which they will be presented to the bride groom at his coming?
     

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