Ephesians by Gordon Clark

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Rippon, Mar 6, 2006.

  1. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,379
    Likes Received:
    325
    I will list some of his words regarding you-know-what .

    This [emphasis on predestination ] is one of Paul's favorite themes , though contemporary pastors are not in this regard imitators of Paul as Paul commanded them to be . ( 1 Cor.4:16 and 11:1 ) ( page 26 )

    Few people realize how the concept of predestination permeates the bible . it is one of its major themes . Yet the majority of so-called evangelicals are oblivious to it , in spite of two hundred or so verses that teach it . ( page 27 )

    Since God's grace is unmerited favor , its forms are a determination of his sovereign will . He chooses whom he will love . Man does not obligate God in any way . God owes us nothing . ( page 68 )

    [ Some of Clark's comments on Eph. 2:8 ] The Arminian ungrammatical and illogical interpretation now says something like this : " you are saved by faith ; your salvation is a gift from God , your salvation is not of works . " But this is both weak and redundant . Compare it with the Calvinistic , logical , and grammatical interoretation : " you have been saved by grace through faith ; even that faith is not of your origination ; faith too is a gift of God . " This is powerful in contrast with the vapid inanity of the other sentence . ( pages 73 and 74 )

    In particular note that God loved Jacob and hated Esau before they were born and before they had done anything good or bad ... the text of Paul explicitly says the boys before their birth . Surely love is favoritism , if anything is ... God has favorites , but he does not choose them on the basis of their social standing or personal excellence . Some indeed who have exceptional abilities were chosen , and Paul was one of them ; but Jacob was not outstanding , nor were most of the original disciples ... [ Remember the ex-slave trader ] who wrote , Amazing partiality, how sweet the sound , that saved a wretch like me . ( page 203 )

    [ March 06, 2006, 12:15 AM: Message edited by: Rippon ]
     
  2. Calvibaptist

    Calvibaptist
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2006
    Messages:
    892
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hey, I like your name. We sang one of your hymns this morning - All Hail the Power of Jesus' Name.
     
  3. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,379
    Likes Received:
    325
    How firm a foundation you are on then .
     
  4. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,379
    Likes Received:
    325
    A needed bump .
     
  5. TCGreek

    TCGreek
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2006
    Messages:
    7,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    1. Solid thoughts on Eph 2:8 from the Calvinistic perspective.

    2. Yes, the doctrine of Predestination was always on the mind of Paul.

    3. Another word that is worth exploring is Call/Called. Now, that is a theologically charged word, whose volts are supernatural.
     
  6. russell55

    russell55
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2002
    Messages:
    2,424
    Likes Received:
    0
    At least in the way Paul uses the word. He often uses it as a near synonymn for saved or being saved.
     
  7. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0

    That view on Eph. 2:8-9 is in the minority, even amongst calvinists...so the Arminian accusation is false. From Albert Barnes (calvinist)...
    And that not of yourselves - That is, salvation does not proceed from yourselves. The word rendered "that" - τοῦτοtouto - is in the neuter gender, and the word "faith" - πίστιςpistis - is in the feminine. The word "that," therefore, does not refer particularly to faith, as being the gift of God, but to "the salvation by grace" of which he had been speaking. This is the interpretation of the passage which is the most obvious, and which is now generally conceded to be the true one; see Bloomfield. Many critics, however, as Doddridge, Beza, Piscator, and Chrysostom, maintain that the word "that" (τοῦτοtouto) refers to "faith" (πίστιςpistis); and Doddridge maintains that such a use is common in the New Testament. As a matter of grammar this opinion is certainly doubtful, if not untenable; but as a matter of theology it is a question of very little importance.
     
  8. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    So..."many are saved (called), but few are chosen"? Huh? :confused:
     
  9. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2005
    Messages:
    4,807
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yep. Many are called (saved), but few are called out (from among the saved).
     
  10. skypair

    skypair
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,657
    Likes Received:
    0
    Not oblivious but it does come "down the list" AFTER salvation. After all, you can't be predestined/elect unless you are saved. :thumbs:

    I had to point out this nonsense! Grace apparently IS "merited" by "favoritism!"

    skypair
     
    #10 skypair, Aug 11, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 11, 2007
  11. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    I thought the text in question was "many are called, but few are chosen", not "many are called, but few are called out".
     
  12. skypair

    skypair
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2006
    Messages:
    4,657
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think she was trying to confuse the Calvies. :laugh:

    There are 2 places where these words appear, Mt 20:16 and 22:14. Both are in regard to the KoH and in both the "called" are Israel (they were called to be vineyard workers and guests when Jesus came) and the "chosen" are the church -- who were hired last in one parable and came as the bride to the marriage feast in the other.

    skypair
     
    #12 skypair, Aug 11, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 11, 2007
  13. Rippon

    Rippon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    17,379
    Likes Received:
    325
    SP: "You can't be predestinated/elect unless you are saved."

    Well , my pilot friend , I guess you are unfamiliar with basic biblical texts such as Eph.1:4 , Acts 13:48 , 2 Thess. 2:13 ; 2 Tim. 1:9 . Grab a Bible . Look theverses up for yourself and see the order . One can't be saved unless one has been predestined beforehand . This is elementary stuff .

    Grace is certainly not merited by favor . How you come up with your convoluted phrases is beyond me . The elect are the ones He chose because it was His good pleasure to do so -- to the praise of His glorious grace .
     
  14. TCGreek

    TCGreek
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2006
    Messages:
    7,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    1. Brothers, why take one verse that says "Many are called but few are chosen" and draw numerous conclusions without considering the context.

    2. In another place Jesus says, "I did not come to CALL the righteous but sinners to repentance." How should we understand this use of CALL?
     
  15. russell55

    russell55
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2002
    Messages:
    2,424
    Likes Received:
    0
    It isn't Paul who made that remark, so what does that have to do with the way Paul uses the word "called"?

    There are places where Paul uses called as a metonymy for saved or became a Christian and I don't think there's really a whole lot of disagreement about that among those who study Paul, no matter what their theological stripe.
     
  16. TCGreek

    TCGreek
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2006
    Messages:
    7,373
    Likes Received:
    0
    A very informed response, indeed!
     

Share This Page

Loading...