Episcopal Church Officially Promotes Idol Worship

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by freeatlast, Nov 1, 2004.

  1. freeatlast

    freeatlast
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  2. BobRyan

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    RCC sources admit that the worship of family gods is simply adapted by the church into the worship of saints - though they call this incense and prayers to the saints as do the pagans with their family gods.

    That happened centuries ago. What surprise that the Anglican church adapts worship of pagan deities and incorporates it (marries it) to Christianity as many Christians do the Atheist Humanist myths of evolutionism to the Gospel.

    Not really "that" surprising.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  3. Glen Seeker

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    Bob,

    Although I realize that I may be banned from this site for seeking the truth, I have to ask the question.

    You state that: "RCC sources admit that the worship of family gods is simply adapted by the church into the worship of saints"

    Worship of saints? Where in the Catholic Church do you find that we worship saints? I have never worshipped the saints and never will. I worship God alone and Him ALONE will I adore.

    Your hatred of the RCC seems to taint your every post concerning it. If you cannot be impartial, how can you be a moderator?

    Fact: The RCC teaches that we worship none but GOD.

    Fact: In the RCC, prayers and Worship are not the same.

    Fact: We pray to (ask) the saints to pray for us just as I would ask you to pray for me.

    Is that wrong? Are they not part of the Body Of Christ just as you and I are? Or do you believe that when they died (passed from this life) they ceased to be part of that body?

    We, as Catholics believe that the "Communion of Saints" includes those who are here on Earth and those who have departed this life in Christ.

    Fact: The RCC teaches that God ALONE is worthy of worship.

    We may ask others (the Saints) for prayers
    but God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) is the only one we shall adore and worship.


    Here I am, a Non-scholar. I never finished college, and yet, I know that your posts are wrong.

    Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, the Life."

    Is there TRUTH or HATRED in your posts about the Catholic Church?

    --------------------------------------------------
    Dare you post this or am I to be now banned from this site?
     
  4. OrovilleTim

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    I don't know much about the Roman Catholic Church (I had to figure out what RCC was, actually) but when you admitted you prayed to saints, especially so casually, I was taken aback.

    It may not be classified as "worship" but, wow... I'd call it "bowing down to others" in my un-Catholic educated perception. I would think that the Buddhist praying to their ancestors could be compared to someone praying to a saint, and do not see such a conclusion as being hateful.

    When I was younger (much younger) I would to pray to my Grandma thinking she could hear me. While I don't think this is the case now (that she can hear me or even see me... would heaven be happy of they could see what we do down here?), I was terrified when it hit me that praying to her was bowing to someone other than God, breaking one of the 10 commandments.

    Actually, if I didn't beleive in the monotheistic Trinity, I wouldn't pray to Jesus. But knowing the two are the same, I can pray to either the entity of God or Jesus. One thing that I do know though is Mormons do not pray to their Jesus. He is a seperate entity from their god (Elojim) so to pray to him would be bowing to others before their god.

    Anyway, please don't take this as hostile or challenging, just take it for what it is... an honest response from someone who doesn't hold any opinion (pro/anti) on Catholicism.
     
  5. DHK

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    Glen,
    Not all Catholics were banned at the time that Catholic Convert and Carson were. I am not sure how many were, but not all Catholics were. There are still Catholics on BB posting.
    Secondly, Bob Ryan is a SDA, and is not a moderator. Though I agree with most of what he says concerning the Catholic Church, I disagree with most of his theology concerning his own church.

    Concerning your own post, I believe you have been around long enough to realize that this board is Baptist, and that as Baptists we believe that the Bible is our final authority in all matters of faith and practice. Therefore even if Catholics choose to redefine words that the Bible uses, we adhere to the Biblical definitions given in the Bible.
    For example, the Bible clearly teaches that worship belongs only to God. That is one of the Ten Commandments, that thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only thou shalt worship. How does one define worship?
    Worship--to ascribe "worth" to, that is, to give honor and glory, and praise. Only God is worthy. He alone is worthy of our praise. Thus along with worship is prayer. Prayer is part of worship, and should be addressed to God alone. If you pray to Mary you are worshipping Mary by the very definition of prayer in itself. You can redefine worship. You can split the definitions of prayer. But the Bible does no such thing. Prayer is worship. When you pray either to Mary or to the saints, you worship Mary and the saints. That is idolatry. It is sin.

    It is not a matter of looking at it from the Catholic point of view. There is no need of doing that. I did that for 20 years. I was a Catholic. We need to look at things from a Biblical point of view. The point is not to redefine the Bible to make it fit our theology, but rather to accept the Bible as it is, and accept change in our own lives according to what the Bible teaches. If the Catholic Church doesn't change or continues to teach error, one should leave it.
    DHK
     
  6. Glen Seeker

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    DHK,

    I'm sorry that I thought that Bob was a moderator, I haven't been around for quite a while. My computer was on the Fritz and I didn't have the money to fix it until recently.

    Oroville Tim, would it be OK if I asked you to pray for me? How about if I asked Bob or DHK or the pastor of my church or the whole congregation for that matter?

    If it is OK to ask you and those others here on Earth who are imperfect for prayers, why is it then wrong to ask our brothers and sisters in Heaven who are perfect for the same thing?

    The problem we have here is one of context.

    To you, prayer equals worship or is part of it and the two can't be separated.

    To Catholics prayer means talking to someone you know who loves you.

    It's sort of like the older meaning of the word where someone would say to a judge, "I pray the court be merciful."

    That's not bowing down and worshipping. That's just asking another human being for some consideration.

    There are many types of prayers. Prayers of thanksgiving, prayers of intercession, prayers for forgiveness and mercy, prayers for things like a new job or car or whatever, and prayers for guidance.

    Would all of these be considered Worship?

    If one goes to the grave of a departed loved one and starts to talk to that person and tell him/her what's happening in one's life, the trials, the joys, the heartaches, etc. that's prayer according to my definition. It isn't worship. It's conversation.

    I hope I've made it a little clearer. I don't know how else to explain it.

    God Bless,
     
  7. BobRyan

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    Thank you for that enthusiasm. I agree with you that the RCC hates it when it gets caught teaching worship of saints as replacing worship of other false gods among pagans - using the same forms of worship and simply replacing one with the other.

    I also agree that even though God's People in the OT were tasked with "wiping out these pagan practices" and so they did not have the problem faced by the RCC today - as quoted above -- still the RCC hopes nobody will notice or make the mistake of seeing their error in these pagan forms of worship.

    (Just a fact)

    Read the quote again - the forms of worship are the same.

    As for pagan prayers included in Catholicism -- here is a RC source on that subject.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  8. BobRyan

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    In 1 Thess 4 the saints that have died are called "The Dead in Christ". You claim to be in "Cummunion with the Dead in Christ".

    OR perhaps you only claim to be in communion with the spirits of the Dead in Christ - either way you have three problems.

    #1. The RC quotes above prove this is equivalent to praying "to the family gods" for pagans.

    #2. This is communion with the Dead - and the Bible forbids it.

    #3. You are not in fact communing with the dead - but with spirits that are assuming the role of the dead.

    Let yourself think about that for a second --

    I suggest you cling to that teaching and reject communion with the dead - in the form of prayers to ancestors etc.

    The RCC has the presence of mind NOT to allow you to pray to any living saint whether present or removed by great distance.

    So "no" this is NOT like asking a friend to pray FOR you. Not even by RC standards.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  9. BobRyan

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    That would be just fine.

    But if you were to PRAY TO US asking us to pray for you - even the RCC would object.

    When the pagans PRAY TO their ancestors, religious leaders, spirits of the dead etc - they too ask favors.

    The RCC will not sanction your performing those acts of worship for to a living saint.

    So the answer is "no" you may not pray to anyone listed in your post - according to the RCC.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  10. LorrieGrace

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    Today is all Soul's Day. I got a card telling me that I need to pray for dead people. Supposedly to help them move closer to heaven if they are in purgatory. It doesn't really make sense because to be absent from the body is to be with the Lord (being saved, of course) and if not with the Lord, then the only other option would be hell. So no amount of praying for dead people will do anything. Use the energy to pray for the lost, the country, etc.
     
  11. Paul33

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    Watch as the worship of Sophia, Gaia, and other new age and pagan rituals work their way into full sexual expression with the mainline churches' blessing. Liturgies are aleady developed for some of this. I forsee liturgies to cover what the NT calls "revellings." I'm talking about full blown "or _ _ es."
     
  12. Glen Seeker

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    Bob,

    What does the Communion of Saints mean to you?

    Do you feel that those who have died "in Christ" are just that? DEAD? Have they been cut off from the "Body of Christ" so that they no longer care about what happens to the rest of that Body?

    I believe that they are more alive than we can ever imagine since they are perfected in Heaven with God forever. They LIVE!

    God is not a God of the Dead but of the living!

    Again you use the word PRAY to mean worship. I don't and didn't. If I may try to explain in different terms, just substitute the word ASK for the words PRAY TO.

    Is it wrong to ASK you to ASK the Lord for my conversion?

    To You "Praying to" means "Worship"

    To me "praying to" means "Asking" or just plain "talking to" as a person would at a grave site or even at home while looking at the picture of a loved one who has passed on.

    So, using my definition of the word, is ASKING (praying to) you to pray to (ask) God for me, wrong?


    If you were a Catholic for all those years and didn't know that to us prayer and worship are not the same, then you didn't really know the faith.

    That's how I see it and you can agree with me --- or not.

    God Bless and Aloha
     
  13. Eric B

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    OK, so you seem to be suggesting now that "prayer" is just "communication", just liek you would ask a living Chrustian to pray for you. But still, though the dead may be just as much apart of the body, sthere is still a difference between them and the living. One you can see and hear, and the other you cannot. The only invisible, spiritual being we are to communicate with is God.
    The answer to this is Isaiah 8:19 "And when they shall say to you, Seek to them that have familiar spirits...should not a people seek to their God for the living to the dead?"
     
  14. Glen Seeker

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    Eric,
    Are you equating those who have died in Christ with familiar spirits?

    Isn't the passage talking about trying to see the future by seeking mediums and fortune tellers? Not the same at all.

    Is that in the Bible?

    What about those in the Old and New Testaments who spoke with angels? Were they doing wrong?

    Hmmmm...

    Aloha and God Bless
     
  15. Eric B

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    A familiar spirit was supposedly the spirit of a "familiar" person one knew, so yes, those who dies in Christ would be familiar spirits; especially the wellknown saints. That is exactly what the mediums were claiming to do back then!

    And when people spoke to angels, they were visible; having manifested themselves to be seen and heard by the person they came to. So that was not prayer! No other time are we to pray to angels or any other spirit, when we don't see them. Only God.
     
  16. Marcia

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    There is nothing in the Bible that tells us we can communicate with those who have died, even dead Christians. They are not cut off from the body of Christ, but they are cut off from this world of the living (on earth that is).

    The Bible tells us that the only mediator between God and man is Jesus Christ (1 Tim 2.5). Why would we need to pray to anyone else?

    Communicating with the dead is not taught in the Bible and is forbidden. We have Christ, and it's not like he can't keep up with our prayers. He doesn't need help.
     
  17. Glen Seeker

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    Eric,

    According to The Christian Dictionary,
    So you see, a familiar spirit is not one who has died in Christ but a demon. The word familiar doesn't mean known to us but means rather, that the sorcerers thought that they could use them as servants.

    Nice ploy to turn turn this Bible passage aginst me, but it doesn't apply. Nope. Not one bit. So sorry. Your bad.
     
  18. Glen Seeker

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    Marcia,

    Are they truly cut off from the world of the living? If so, then who are in the 'great cloud of witnesses' spoken of in Hebrews 11?

    You see, it is exactly Christ's mediation which allows us to be mediators for each other.

    If you've ever prayed (asked) for anyone's healing or conversion or good health or safe journey, then you have in fact, acted as a mediator for that person. The person who led you to Christ was a mediator between you and God.

    Why would we ask anyone else? Why not? Don't the prayers of a righteous person accomplish much?

    Let's see,.... altar calls are not taught in the Bible. Are they forbidden?

    Never said He couldn't, never said He did.

    Look at it this way.
    A mother is going to bake a cake. Her child wants to help. Does she get angry with the child and chastise him because she can do it herself and doesn't need his help? I hope not.

    Instead, she will take longer to make the cake by helping the child to help her. When it's finally put into the oven, the child will probably be rewarded by a hug and by licking the spoon or cleaning the bowl. And what happens between the child and the mother? There will be an increase of the love they have for one another.

    Does the mother need the help?
    Can the child really help?
    Does the mother reject the help?

    Same with Christ.

    Aloha and God Bless
     
  19. Marcia

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    Are they truly cut off from the world of the living? If so, then who are in the 'great cloud of witnesses' spoken of in Hebrews 11?

    You see, it is exactly Christ's mediation which allows us to be mediators for each other.

    If you've ever prayed (asked) for anyone's healing or conversion or good health or safe journey, then you have in fact, acted as a mediator for that person. The person who led you to Christ was a mediator between you and God.

    Why would we ask anyone else? Why not? Don't the prayers of a righteous person accomplish much?

    Let's see,.... altar calls are not taught in the Bible. Are they forbidden?

    Never said He couldn't, never said He did.

    Aloha and God Bless
    </font>[/QUOTE]Glenn,

    The "Cloud of witnesses" is referring to the legacy of those saints who have gone before us. There is nothing in this verse or passage to indicate we could or should communicate with them. You would have to read into the passage to get that.

    Christ is the mediator between us and God, so we pray to Him. Yes, I can pray for others, but I am praying to Christ. No one is praying to me. The point is, we are praying to Christ.

    Yes, the prayers of righteous people accomplish much, but they are praying to Christ.

    Your analogy of the mother helping her child to make the cake has nothing to do with how we should pray and whether or not we can or should communicate with dead people. You have given no biblical support for this.
     
  20. Glen Seeker

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    Marcia,
    The "Cloud of witnesses" is referring to the legacy of those saints who have gone before us.

    If I may politely disagree with you, I feel that the "Cloud of Witnesses" refer to the saints who have passed before us, not just their legacy.

    Christ is the mediator between us and God, so we pray to Him. Yes, I can pray for others, but I am praying to Christ. No one is praying to me. The point is, we are praying to Christ.

    You are using the word prayer to mean worship. When I use the word prayer, I mean talk to or ask.
    There's a great difference in our definitions.

    Only through Christ can our prayers mean anything.
    However, it is just because of this, that we can be "mediators" for each other by prayers and deeds. Christ is the MEDIATOR but through Him, we can and should also be mediators.

    The analogy of the mother aqnd child wasn't meant to answer how we should pray or whether or not we should communicate with dead people, it was written in answer to the statement that He doesn't need help.
     

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